Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

[Moonchild]

[quote=Marisa;6713]I'm sorry, does "extreme" mean something different to you?

When I use the word "extreme" I am using it in reference to the fact that they are on the very edge of what we know about (or can measure) so in that way they are extreme to me.

Being an nurse and practitioner, I would think that you would understand my concern at the following statement ("...attempts to take me to those extreme states which I must visit...").

You say that Theta can give the same results as the more 'extreme' (what other word suits?) but one is conscious in Theta whereas in my many experiences of sleep paralyses, out of body and hypnogogic phenomena I would have thought that I was in a much deeper brainwave pattern but then I am no expert. I have certainly not been in a light trance and in my lucid dreaming I am fully conscious in a dream environment so that again shows that my physical must be in some way disengaged.



"I was pointing what I questioned about Thompson's work. "

He has been at it for a very long time (30 years) and is world renowned in his field. I knew that he had termed the different states in his own words but those are widely accepted it seems by very many people that was why I was surprised that you had not come across his terms before seeing as you are involved in this field.

I have been experimenting with this kind of thing for 30 years too although not in any depth of academic work. I simply decided many years ago to try to understand what was happening to me and came to my own conclusions. One of which was that we are separated from different realms of being by vibration and that is where brainwaves come in too.

I am well aware that I have not utilised my Proteus in any real way as I am a bit of a technophobe and many of the instructions went over my head. I have, however, experimented with boundary states of consciousness myself and am able to remain alert after my physical body has gone to sleep. I hope I have explained myself better and you can realise that my desire to experiment with the levels of brainwaves that are on the leading edge of what has up till now been able to be measured has a good foundation and not after cheap thrills.

[Marisa]

I can feel your irritability from here Marisa and its a bit off putting to be frank

I'm actually not irritated, just pressed for time.

The reason I asked was obviously because I wanted to know more and thought this was a forum to do just that. I do not pretend to know it all or I would not be asking but I do take umbridge at the tone of your reply.

There are SO many different sites selling different mp3's and cds that speak of the levels of brainwaves that I have mentioned that I wanted to know more not get a lecture.

I have no idea how you could find that offensive. I was actually trying to be helpful. I didn't want you to go to a bunch of trouble to achieve something when there was a simpler way.

Are you mad because I questioned Thompson's work? Why would that offend you ...unless you are Thompson ...?

Like someone said on another thread I wanted to use my Proteus to explore my mind as much as possible due to my lifetime of experiencing spontaneous changes in brainwave activity.

... and I think that's a good thing.

I understand you feel very passionate about the Proteus but please do not speak to me as though I am a naughty child.

If anything puts a bee in my bonnet, it's pseudoscience and claims made about neurotechnology that are misleading. That gets me all fired up. I'm all for mind exploration but I want people to use this technology in a safe manner. I want to point out where claims made about this technology are questionable. That's my goal.

I thought this was where Proteus owners could get help If I had not read so widely about other levels of brainwaves and what they are responsible for I would not have been seeking clarification.

You know, I have a really busy schedule and I do my best to help answer questions and provide information. I don't get paid to do this. I'm here to share what I know and if it was about my ego, then I'd make more of an effort to be charming. I gain nothing through your dissatisfaction. It actually makes me sad that you see things this way. Sometimes I want to respond to a message but I'm limited by time and so I may not put as much thought into my tone as I do the information I'm giving. For that I apologize.

Stick around - gez - I'm afraid of heights so there's no looking down on anyone.

M.

[Marisa]

When I use the word "extreme" I am using it in reference to the fact that they are on the very edge of what we know about (or can measure) so in that way they are extreme to me.

Oh okay, I get what you mean. Hmmm what would be a good word for that? Leading Edge maybe. Fringe?

So is what you are saying - that you are interesting in exploring beyond the limits of what is currently known?

I'm asking this next question because I am truly curious: What are you looking to find? Is it a feeling, an ability?

You say that Theta can give the same results as the more 'extreme' (what other word suits?) but one is conscious in Theta whereas in my many experiences of sleep paralysis, out of body and hypnogogic phenomena I would have thought that I was in a much deeper brain wave pattern but then I am no expert. I have certainly not been in a light trance and in my lucid dreaming I am fully conscious in a dream environment so that again shows that my physical must be in some way disengaged.

A good, deep theta trance is like being on the brink of falling asleep. Your body doesn't move but you begin dreaming. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that you haven't been able to achieve what you want in a light trance - the key would be to go deeper but not asleep. It's still theta, maybe high delta.

He has been at it for a very long time (30 years) and is world renowned in his field. I knew that he had termed the different states in his own words but those are widely accepted it seems by very many people that was why I was surprised that you had not come across his terms before seeing as you are involved in this field.

He's kind of on the fringe. I'd put him in the same category as the Monroe Institute. It's not mainstream science as the claims have not been proven valid beyond their own research, which keeps it from being accepted as "science". So they remain in scientific limbo. I'm by no means "dissing" them as hypnosis is close to the fringe as well. There are lots of interesting things that come out of the fringe - some become mainstream while others fade away.

Thomas Budzynski, Harold Russell, Robert Austin and Michael Hutchison are the names I would put more as leaders in the AVS field.

I have been experimenting with this kind of thing for 30 years too although not in any depth of academic work. I simply decided many years ago to try to understand what was happening to me and came to my own conclusions. One of which was that we are separated from different realms of being by vibration and that is where brain waves come in too.

Interesting. So where do you go from here? Maybe an EEG machine is in your future?

I am well aware that I have not utilized my Proteus in any real way as I am a bit of a technophobe and many of the instructions went over my head. I have, however, experimented with boundary states of consciousness myself and am able to remain alert after my physical body has gone to sleep. I hope I have explained myself better and you can realize that my desire to experiment with the levels of brain waves that are on the leading edge of what has up till now been able to be measured has a good foundation and not after cheap thrills.

Yup, I definitely see an EEG machine in your future. It would be cool because then you could actually measure what your brain waves are in any given state and what works and what doesn't. The down side is that the machines are expensive and you'd have to get over the technophobe thing.

BTW, I don't see a problem with cheap thrills. They are cheap and they are thrilling. I get what you are saying though.

Thanks for sticking around.

M.

[Moonchild]

Hi Marisa
Firstly, thank you for explaining your stance and apologies for me being so impatient. I reckon I do need more theta
Yes, I am interested in expanding my experience of life in every way, always have been. I did have the earlier version of the light and sound machine and a biofeedback machine but we are talking about 30 years ago when there was no internet and such things had to be specially ordered.

So is what you are saying - that you are interesting in exploring beyond the limits of what is currently known?

I'm asking this next question because I am truly curious: What are you looking to find? Is it a feeling, an ability?

Everything! By that I mean I like to explore the possibilities of consciousness while in the body.
I have had such amazing experiences and it has stimulated my desire to know more. Of course I also want to take advantage of all the many benefits the machine has to offer in the way of relaxation, speed learning and peak performance. My son is suffering from depression/ anxiety and I would like to be able to help him too.

A good, deep theta trance is like being on the brink of falling asleep. Your body doesn't move but you begin dreaming. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that you haven't been able to achieve what you want in a light trance - the key would be to go deeper but not asleep. It's still theta, maybe high delta.

Can you recommend programs that will give me this? I have been doing the delta but maybe that's not right

He's kind of on the fringe. I'd put him in the same category as the Monroe Institute. It's not mainstream science as the claims have not been proven valid beyond their own research, which keeps it from being accepted as "science". So they remain in scientific limbo. I'm by no means "dissing" them as hypnosis is close to the fringe as well. There are lots of interesting things that come out of the fringe - some become mainstream while others fade away.


I see
Thomas Budzynski, Harold Russell, Robert Austin and Michael Hutchison are the names I would put more as leaders in the AVS field.

Thanks will look into them


Interesting. So where do you go from here? Maybe an EEG machine is in your future?

Yes, a friend already suggested that. I have maybe got a sleep disorder and often felt it could be interesting to be monitored in a sleep clinic but the condition is very strange in that one tends to have a run of sleep paralyses then nothing for ages. In my twenties I was totally plagued by it and of course it leads onto other experiences. I took the philosophy that rather than being terrified by it as many are....I would empower myself by learning all I could. In this way I have tried to take control of it and lose the fear.
To become fully conscious in a dreamscape and converse with people there is the most amazing experience and it is one that I would like to be able to do at will.

Yup, I definitely see an EEG machine in your future. It would be cool because then you could actually measure what your brain waves are in any given state and what works and what doesn't. The down side is that the machines are expensive and you'd have to get over the technophobe thing.

BTW, I don't see a problem with cheap thrills. They are cheap and they are thrilling. I get what you are saying though.

I do find the frontiers of inner space to be incredibly thrilling. I have to say that we are just learning now by way of science what the ancients knew already. Shamanic 'journeying' has been done for thousands of years with the beat of the drum as entrainment. To be able to reach those states with the aid of meodern technology is really thrilling for me.
When young I was always interested in all this but there was no information to be had at all for the lay person. this is why I do tend to get passionate about it.
Although I have had my Proteus for years I have only taken it out of hiding again recently and said I will give it another go. It's not that I do not think it is lacking...what is lacking is my ability to use it properly.



I understnd that this is time consuming work for you and indeed must be a labour of love I can understand that as I am sure you can see.

If you can think of the best programs to recommend for my needs I would be most grateful. In fact it was only the other day that I was given the different frequencies in the progs and that was a huge help. I still do not quite understnd the difference in them all apart from maybe length of time. I can see of course that some are relaxing some stimulating but well I could go on all day


Ps I have not quite got the hang of the quote bars

Thanks for your patience.

[Marisa]

Hi Marisa
Everything! By that I mean I like to explore the possibilities of consciousness while in the body.
I have had such amazing experiences and it has stimulated my desire to know more. Of course I also want to take advantage of all the many benefits the machine has to offer in the way of relaxation, speed learning and peak performance. My son is suffering from depression/ anxiety and I would like to be able to help him too.

Program # 9, 33 & 34 are Alpha based programs. These can be helpful for depression and anxiety.

MB: A good, deep theta trance is like being on the brink of falling asleep. Your body doesn't move but you begin dreaming. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that you haven't been able to achieve what you want in a light trance - the key would be to go deeper but not asleep. It's still theta, maybe high delta.

MC: Can you recommend programs that will give me this? I have been doing the delta but maybe that's not right

You could try P31 or 45. I don't know if you have the Session Parameter Chart or not so I attached it. It goes into detail as to what frequencies are used in each segment of a program.

MB: Thomas Budzynski, Harold Russell, Robert Austin and Michael Hutchison are the names I would put more as leaders in the AVS field.

MC: Thanks will look into them

On the Mindplace Support site, there is a reference library that has some good articles. http://mindplacesupport.com/Reference.htm and/or you can look through the various articles in the library section of this forum as well. http://mindplacesupport.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13 .

I've found it to be quite challenging to find good information on AVS. Some of the best information I've found has been from books on EEG and Neurofeedback. They can be a bit pricey though. The information about brain waves is transferable between systems, the mode of delivery is slightly different.

Yes, a friend already suggested that. I have maybe got a sleep disorder and often felt it could be interesting to be monitored in a sleep clinic but the condition is very strange in that one tends to have a run of sleep paralysis then nothing for ages. In my twenties I was totally plagued by it and of course it leads onto other experiences. I took the philosophy that rather than being terrified by it as many are....I would empower myself by learning all I could. In this way I have tried to take control of it and lose the fear.
To become fully conscious in a dreamscape and converse with people there is the most amazing experience and it is one that I would like to be able to do at will.

You may enjoy the book "The Art of Dreaming" by Carlos Castaneda. It's a bit different of a perspective on the subject. Putting aside belief (whether you believe in the Toltec tradition or not), some of the techniques he talks about for "dreaming" are quite useful.

I do find the frontiers of inner space to be incredibly thrilling. I have to say that we are just learning now by way of science what the ancients knew already. Shamanic 'journeying' has been done for thousands of years with the beat of the drum as entrainment. To be able to reach those states with the aid of modern technology is really thrilling for me.

A lot of things that were done in the name of magick, now have a scientific explanation (how it works and why). Symbolism is a really cool thing to work with.

Altered States of Consciousness (ASC) have also been induced through ritual (spiritual, magick, religious etc.), extreme temperatures (sweat lodges, ice baths), hunger (fasting), sensory deprivation (float tanks, solitary confinement), drugs (certain drugs), dancing and an assortment of brain-washing techniques. I've found ASC to be a really interesting study.

When young I was always interested in all this but there was no information to be had at all for the lay person. this is why I do tend to get passionate about it.
Although I have had my Proteus for years I have only taken it out of hiding again recently and said I will give it another go. It's not that I do not think it is lacking...what is lacking is my ability to use it properly.

The key to this brain wave stuff is to become really familiar with the groups of frequencies (Beta, Alpha etc.). The specific frequencies (like 10 Hz) are not highly relevant for two reasons. The first is that each brain will perceive or react differently to specific frequencies. So where 10 Hz may give one person the effect they want, 9 or 8 Hz may work better on another. That is why the programs sweep through a range of frequencies.

The second thing is that EEG may be a better way to deliver a specific frequency to a specific part of the brain. The target of an AVS machine is more general. There are those who would argue with me on this, and they are correct in doing so because they may get good results through a specific frequency - some things work on some and not on others. In the end, it's the results that matter.

I understand that this is time consuming work for you and indeed must be a labor of love I can understand that as I am sure you can see.

I enjoy sharing what I've learned ... after all, what good is information if it's going to just sit on a shelf in my head. That and the forum administrator is a real task master. lol

If you can think of the best programs to recommend for my needs I would be most grateful. In fact it was only the other day that I was given the different frequencies in the progs and that was a huge help. I still do not quite understand the difference in them all apart from maybe length of time. I can see of course that some are relaxing some stimulating but well I could go on all day

For the ones that have similar names, the biggest difference is length. The other ones have different varieties of segments - keeps it from getting boring. I really enjoy P8 and P10. I think you'd really enjoy the AS cd - Requiem. I found it to be really trippy.

Ps I have not quite got the hang of the quote bars

At the top of your screen, where all the icons are is one that looks like a caption box you see on a comic book. If you highlight the text that you want to quote and then press that icon, it automatically puts the text into quotes. The long hand method is to write the word "quote" at the beginning with the square parenthesis around it "[]". The end "quote" has a "/" forward slash in front of it and is also encased in the square parenthesis. Hope this makes sense. If not, Andy may be better at explaining it than me. Just ask.

Thanks for your patience.

Ditto

M.

[Moonchild]

Hi Marisa thanks for all the info. Much appreciated.

Program # 9, 33 & 34 are Alpha based programs. These can be helpful for depression and anxiety.

That's great to know. I will try them out on him.

You could try P31 or 45. I don't know if you have the Session Parameter Chart or not so I attached it. It goes into detail as to what frequencies are used in each segment of a program.

That chart is great!

On the Mindplace Support site, there is a reference library that has some good articles. http://mindplacesupport.com/Reference.htm and/or you can look through the various articles in the library section of this forum as well. http://mindplacesupport.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13 .

Thanks for that.

You may enjoy the book "The Art of Dreaming" by Carlos Castaneda. It's a bit different of a perspective on the subject. Putting aside belief (whether you believe in the Toltec tradition or not), some of the techniques he talks about for "dreaming" are quite useful.

STrange but several others have recommended him to me of late. I read him many years ago and could not understand it but feel I may see things differently now.

I enjoy sharing what I've learned ... after all, what good is information if it's going to just sit on a shelf in my head. That and the forum administrator is a real task master. lol

I enjoy sharing what I have learned too although my sphere is not this lol I am excited though about using my machine far more and becoming more aquainted with it.

I think you'd really enjoy the AS cd - Requiem. I found it to be really trippy.

I am going to buy it.
I think it will take a long time to get used to all the proteus has to offer. Do you think the more expensive ones have more to offer ie eyes open etc. The reason I ask is that if my son finds relief from the anxiety/ depression I would like to give him my one and buy another

Thanks again for all your help.
[

[Marisa]

I think it will take a long time to get used to all the proteus has to offer. Do you think the more expensive ones have more to offer ie eyes open etc. The reason I ask is that if my son finds relief from the anxiety/ depression I would like to give him my one and buy another

Thanks again for all your help.
[

The open eyes systems [IMHO] work best on things like concentration. Alpha is naturally increased when you close your eyes and since Alpha is what your son can use more of, I think that open-eyed light frames would work against a natural system and not be as effective as the closed-eye machines. I think that if AVS is going to help your son, it will work with the Proteus. Essentially all AVS machines do the same thing - work to influence brain waves. The cost difference comes in with added bells and whistles (features).

I hope this answers your question. If not, keep asking.

M.