Circadian rythym disorders -- best way to use machine to help?

[Lorelai]

I've had lifelong issues with sleep. I've always had a very hard time getting to sleep at a normal time -- really bit for my parents, they even tried Ferberization even though Mom was very into attachment parenting. Once I get to sleep, I can sleep for 10-14 hours *easily*. One semester when I was in college I set up my schedule so I could have a 36-hour day -- stay up for 24 hours, sleep for 12 -- and it worked really well (tho my classmates thought I was insane and my roommate applied for a transfer to another room because I was giving *her* a sleep disorder... heh.)

Alas, work isn't so friendly to my weird brain, and working nights doesn't help matters either (the shift differential is nice tho).

I've had sleep studies done, and while they are not very helpful at diagnosing a circadian rhythm disorder, it did rule out apneas or periodic limb movements as contributing factors. I did show signs of alpha-delta sleep anomaly, but other than that all it said was a significantly increased sleep latency and decreased total efficiency. I've tried what feels like every single drug/supplement/herb known to mankind to assist with insomnia, including melatonin under a doctor's supervision. The ones that actually worked all had significant tolerance/dependence/rebound insomnia problems. Due to some of my physicians being absolute idiots, I've gone through some pretty terrible withdrawal/discontinuation syndromes when trying to stop regimens that stopped working (never had a problem willpower-wise with putting them down, but just in case anyone's curious: I can attest that Xanax is not a good sleep aid, four days is not long enough to taper from a fairly high dose after being on it three months, eight days of no sleep will cause a Very Unhappy altered state called psychosis, seizures scare your friends, and a week in the hospital is a much more expensive vacation than a cruise.)

All of that is to say... I've tried everything.

I came across the idea of brain wave stimulation when exploring meditation and self-hypnosis, and I ordered my Proteus yesterday, but I saw a reference on here to adjusting sleep phases with these machines and am extremely curious. I'd be *very* willing to dedicate time before I went to bed and when I woke up to an attempt to possibly get my circadian rhythm to be anywhere close to normal.

So, I wanted to ask ... has anyone used the mind machine to adjust sleep phases instead of just using it for insomnia? Or does anyone have a suggestion for a regimen of use that might do the trick? I would be willing to purchase the Ruby/Sapphire glasses if it would help.

Thanks so much for reading this long first post!

[Marisa]

I've had lifelong issues with sleep. I've always had a very hard time getting to sleep at a normal time -- really bit for my parents, they even tried Ferberization even though Mom was very into attachment parenting. Once I get to sleep, I can sleep for 10-14 hours *easily*. One semester when I was in college I set up my schedule so I could have a 36-hour day -- stay up for 24 hours, sleep for 12 -- and it worked really well (tho my classmates thought I was insane and my roommate applied for a transfer to another room because I was giving *her* a sleep disorder... heh.)

The good news is that if it is something like a circadian rhythm disorder, you may be able to fix that with a bit of work [more on that below]. You could try the Proteus on P47 could help with that. Perhaps if you woke up a few hours later, you could try that same program or a shorter version of it to get back to sleep. I really don't know if it will work for you or not, it's certainly worth a try.

Alas, work isn't so friendly to my weird brain, and working nights doesn't help matters either (the shift differential is nice tho).

Another thing you can do if you haven't gotten a good night's sleep is to do a "regeneration" session like P10. It would be refreshing - kind of like having a power nap.

I've had sleep studies done, and while they are not very helpful at diagnosing a circadian rhythm disorder, it did rule out apneas or periodic limb movements as contributing factors. I did show signs of alpha-delta sleep anomaly, but other than that all it said was a significantly increased sleep latency and decreased total efficiency.

So do you think it's a circadian rhythm disorder? If so, has anyone given you any suggestions or procedures to try to reset the CR? If you want to explore this further, there is a really good book called, "Sleep" by Carlos H Schenck, MD. He talks about a few different types of circadian rhythm disorders and has some good suggestions. Maybe there is something in this book you will find helpful?

I've tried what feels like every single drug/supplement/herb known to mankind to assist with insomnia, including melatonin under a doctor's supervision. The ones that actually worked all had significant tolerance/dependence/rebound insomnia problems.

Have you ruled out the possibility of an underlying medical or neurological condition? Medical disorders that can cause sleep problems - fibromyalgia, hyperthyroidism, cardiovascular disorders, gastrointestinal diseases. Any of these may need a different kind of treatment than the standards used for insomnia.

Have you ever seen a neurologist or had a CAT scan or MRI to rule out anything happening at the brain level (micro-seizures, brain stem lesions, pituitary tumor etc.).

Emotionally, this has got to have been hard on you. Depression can be brought on by lack of sleep and then can make sleeping even harder. You mentioned that you tried Melatonin - how did that work for you? I don't think it is strong enough to solve the problem but it may have helped with a resulting underlying depression - as melatonin is related to serotonin.

Due to some of my physicians being absolute idiots, I've gone through some pretty terrible withdrawal/discontinuation syndromes when trying to stop regimens that stopped working (never had a problem willpower-wise with putting them down, but just in case anyone's curious: I can attest that Xanax is not a good sleep aid, four days is not long enough to taper from a fairly high dose after being on it three months, eight days of no sleep will cause a Very Unhappy altered state called psychosis, seizures scare your friends, and a week in the hospital is a much more expensive vacation than a cruise.)

Ewww that can't have been fun. Gez, not sleeping can be a life-threatening condition - as you found out. So it was the toxic-metabolic effects of the drug(s) and withdrawal that caused the 8 day no sleep trip into hell?

Xanax - that's odd. I don't see how that could help with sleep. Maybe it helped with the anxiety that resulted from not sleeping. Still, it sounds like doctors are treating the symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Let's face it - if you are not sleeping there is a problem and it's either physical, biochemical, neurological (kind of goes with physical) or psychological (which does a chicken and egg routine with not sleeping). A pill would be nice - if it actually addressed the cause of the problem.

All of that is to say... I've tried everything.

Almost everything.

I came across the idea of brain wave stimulation when exploring meditation and self-hypnosis, and I ordered my Proteus yesterday, but I saw a reference on here to adjusting sleep phases with these machines and am extremely curious. I'd be *very* willing to dedicate time before I went to bed and when I woke up to an attempt to possibly get my circadian rhythm to be anywhere close to normal.

It's certainly an inexpensive tool to try. I think, as I mentioned earlier that it may not cure the problem but it may provide some relief.

If there is something psychological that is contributing to the problem, you may find it helpful to go a few sessions with an NLP practitioner as they would be able to ferret out any unconscious causes or contributors.

So, I wanted to ask ... has anyone used the mind machine to adjust sleep phases instead of just using it for insomnia? Or does anyone have a suggestion for a regimen of use that might do the trick? I would be willing to purchase the Ruby/Sapphire glasses if it would help.

You won't need the ruby/sapphire glasses. The ruby emerald will be fine - probably even better for what you are wanting ... unless you are light sensitive but then you could just turn the brightness down.

Hopefully I've given you some new ideas and stuff to consider.

M.

[Lorelai]

So do you think it's a circadian rhythm disorder? If so, has anyone given you any suggestions or procedures to try to reset the CR? If you want to explore this further, there is a really good book called, "Sleep" by Carlos H Schenck, MD. He talks about a few different types of circadian rhythm disorders and has some good suggestions. Maybe there is something in this book you will find helpful?

That's the conclusion my current sleep doctor has come to -- I'm 30 now and have been seeing doctors about my sleep since I was 14. When I was doing contract work and had a month off about a year ago, he asked me to just record my sleep pattern without any pills or any additional lighting (just what I would get in my normal activities). He said I have non-24 hour sleep disorder, with that showing about a 28-34 hour cycle instead of 24 for me. It varied over that month but was never lower than 28 hours. Apparently this is the one that's the hardest to deal with -- if you have a cycle that's short, you can extend it with bright light in the afternoons, but it's harder to shorten a long cycle. When I actually can get to sleep, I sleep fairly well.

Have you ruled out the possibility of an underlying medical or neurological condition? Medical disorders that can cause sleep problems - fibromyalgia, hyperthyroidism, cardiovascular disorders, gastrointestinal diseases. Any of these may need a different kind of treatment than the standards used for insomnia.

I have an autoimmune disorder called Sjogren's Syndrome, but it mainly causes dry mouth and eyes for me. My rheumatologist says that many people with it have symptoms similar to fibromyalgia, but it is not causing that level of impairment for me and I'm hoping it never does.

Have you ever seen a neurologist or had a CAT scan or MRI to rule out anything happening at the brain level (micro-seizures, brain stem lesions, pituitary tumor etc.).

Was evaluated for migraines when I was a teenager, but that turned out to be really awful allergies causing sinus issues. No abnormalities on MRI done at that time, and I had my sleep problems then

Emotionally, this has got to have been hard on you. Depression can be brought on by lack of sleep and then can make sleeping even harder. You mentioned that you tried Melatonin - how did that work for you? I don't think it is strong enough to solve the problem but it may have helped with a resulting underlying depression - as melatonin is related to serotonin.

It's not been fun but as part of various treatments they have tried several antidepressants because they seem to have some influence on sleep. While SSRI discontinuation syndrome is nowhere near as awful as benzodiazepine withdrawal, it's not a walk in the park. Trazodone is not a fun one to come off of either. Melatonin was not very effective, but I may not have been taking it at the right time to trick the biological clock correctly.

Ewww that can't have been fun. Gez, not sleeping can be a life-threatening condition - as you found out. So it was the toxic-metabolic effects of the drug(s) and withdrawal that caused the 8 day no sleep trip into hell? Xanax - that's odd. I don't see how that could help with sleep. Maybe it helped with the anxiety that resulted from not sleeping. Still, it sounds like doctors are treating the symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Yeah, that was when I was 21. I was trying to work with a general practitioner instead of a sleep specialist. He really didn't know what he was doing, and later ended up getting disciplined for being too free with other meds (specifically painkillers). Benzodiazepine withdrawal is very nasty, because GABA is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter (possibly the only one), and benzos make GABA work better at certain receptors (different benzos effect different ones, Xanax hits ones that control anxiety, sleep, and prevention of seizures -- drugs like Ambien are benzo-like at only the ones for sleep at normal doses). Your body responds by lowering the amount of GABA it produces and increasing levels of excitatory neurotransmitters to compensate, and coming off of the drug doesn't make all of that compensation go away quickly. I did not start seizing until that 8th day, the fourth day without any meds at all, when I was already pretty off the deep end from sleep deprivation. A friend who lived across the hall found me in full grand-mal.

Hopefully I've given you some new ideas and stuff to consider.

You have, and thank you very much -- I'm definitely going to check out the book.

There's no real cure for non-24 hour sleep cycles per the doctor, all that can be done is try to trick your biological clock. With all of my bad experiences with pills, I'm really hesitant to try any more. I'm sure you can understand