Observations after the search!

[MWP]

For the record. I purchased the Procyon, and have ordered a number of AudioStrobe CDs from MindPlace. I have been using an emWave Personal Stress Reliever for a little time to help with relaxation exercises. In the course of looking at that, the StressEraser, etc., it became apparent that these devices are marketed well to a growing market. emWave has a computer package for BOTH MAC and PC. It has been helpful to me, and has surprised me about some of my stressful situations and lack of sleep. However, I decided to look at the AVS world, as well.

Most AVS websites and information sounds like they are coming from the 80s. Believe me, I tracked down a lot of different machines through Google, YouTube and other searches. It seemed to me that I was being offered cassette players when I was looking for an iPod (does anyone really still have a portable CD player?). I saw several websites that talked about their editing software - written for Windows 95 and 98 (hardly encouraging there). The most contemporary machine out there was the iLightz with their iPod dock. However, few had good things to say about the machine or the glasses. I'll bet you they sell well, though, because they are tying into current technology.

The other thing that struck me about my search was the "geek" factor to be involved. I've previewed several pieces of software with the old looking PC interface. I've read a lot of posts here, and frankly, I'll just never have the time to get to where a number of you are in tweaking and writing your sessions. It is far from intuitive - and nothing runs on a MAC. Thankfully, I have Windows 7 installed on my MAC so I have some options. It is just too difficult for the average person to modify anything, so we're stuck with all the defaults. Even MindPlace's units (Procyon & Proteus) cannot share glasses (without an adaptor). The Proteus does not come with a USB cable, so I can't transfer files on my MAC with the old PC connector that comes with it.

Please, I'm not trying to be negative, but this was a tough call for me. I narrowed in to the Procyon and the Nova Pro 100. The difference is the MindPlace forum - that's what helped me make the final decision.

I've read that the market is small for AVS. No wonder when it appears to be dated technology and software. And, you gotta love all the posts about having out-of-body experiences, hallucinations (sorry, finished with LSD back in the early 70s), near death experiences and trances. Not good mainstream marketing.

I am the leader of an organization that has projects in 20 developing countries. I travel a lot, as do my key VPs and Directors. We are always fighting stress, sleep issues, and we need to relax. And the people I work with overseas fight the same issues. I see a lot of benefits in AVS. And I know dozens of people that would buy one of these units if it wasn't so darn clunky and hard to figure out.

Consider this. I've struggled with smoking my whole life. I have quit more times than I can count. One day I was in a mall and they had a kiosk set up (lots of malls had them) to demonstrate the new e-cig that uses vapor (with or without nicotine). I was fascinated. I went home, researched it.. found the type I wanted (after ordering a couple I didn't like). I haven't had a cigarette in over 6 months. I'm running without hacking, and have eliminated over 2,000 carcinogens that are in cigarettes. As a result, my brother, sister, son and several other friends have purchased them - wish I would have had a franchise. Some of my son's friends are now "vaping." No more stepping outside for a smoke.

MindPlace could do the same for AVS. I don't want to quibble about what the features would be, but here's how I would approach it:

Have three levels of AVS machines (like you do now). Each is sleek and modern looking. All the glasses are interchangeable, and software exists for both the Mac and the PC. The units include a certain amount of presets depending on price. Additional sessions are available for purchase through the website and can be easily transferred by USB from ANY computer. The unit includes the mp3 player so that AS (or a more updated standard) cuts can be added, and the units will also be able to easily blend sessions with the people's own music that they load on the mp3. The MindPlace website consolidates and offers cuts of all kinds, depending on people's needs. If relaxation is my purpose, I could buy 10 more relaxation sessions for $10 or whatever, and transfer it easily. You'd lose the bulky headphones and have a decent set of earbuds (upgradable to better ones, of course). You have a built in rechargeable battery on the top unit or two. So then, you have your AVS unit (which includes mp3), earbuds and glasses in a sleek, protected carry bag that can be taken everywhere. People won't be tied to a computer and will take these with them. Of course, you could offer even more experiences on the MAC and PC, at an additional cost, of course.

You rent the mall kiosks and do 10 minute wow-factor demos with a basic relaxation session... good music with relaxation beats embedded, nice lights... You'd own the market.

Everywhere you turn, both in the US and overseas, stress is one of the things that is most talked about in the news and in personal conversations. People want to relax. AVS is not in the mainstream because it looks like old technology, has a big geek factor to do anything, and frankly has too many people posting about tripping out on them. However, in the reviews I read, I also saw how many people have benefitted from them through relaxation and stress release. There are also focus and performance applications. Think of all the people from 30 to 70 that are running at breakneck speed in their lives. You have the answer! And, believe me, they have the money to spend on that answer.

In my sphere just in CS, I know a dozen people that would not blink an eye at dropping $500 for something to help them - I just can't recommend something that is so difficult to grow with and is so unwieldy with having to carry my iPod on top of a too-large unit, earphones and glasses.. They'd be the ones that would buy all the add-ons, sessions, music tracks, etc., down the road. I think the AVS world is sitting on a gold mine, but all I hear is about how limited the market is. Nay, not so. I'm not made out of money, but I'll shell out a bunch if I think it will benefit my wife and I. I looked at units several hundreds of dollars more than the Procyon. But, you have a forum of loyal people (the start of your social networking campaign) who are committed to this company. That's why I decided to start here. If you made things easy, the $380 I dropped on the Procyon and AS CDs would just be a start. Make it easy for me to grow with this - tell me why I need another kind of glasses for a certain mode - these kinds of CDs and sessions for my particular focus, and you'll have my credit card plunked down many times in the future.

Next weekend, Apple releases their iPad. I've heard that well over 200,000 units at an average price of $600 have been pre-sold even though it appears to be nothing more than a glorified iPod Touch.

My wife is a massage therapist and is interested in relaxation. She deals everyday with the stressed out public. If my unit wasn't so clunky and hard to operate and expand, she'd be recommending them to clients.

Sorry for the long post. I just see a tremendous opportunity here to move this industry forward by leaps and bounds.

After just days of use with them emWave, I am feeling some benefit, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to others. It is a very simple unit, but it can accomplish something good for people. Gosh, yoga and mediation don't cost anything, but they are not accepted by the mass of working people struggling to fit it into their busy. However, the ability to blend audio and vision in a quiet setting is much more appealing - that is the culture we live in! And guess what - there will be great benefit to those who use AVS. Good luck.

Mark

[Andy]

Hi Mark!

Thank you very much for your obervations and suggestions.

I understand that you mentioned other products to use as comparison, but in keeping with the forum guidelines, let's not make this thread into a discussion of other manufacturer's products, but a discussion of MindPlace products and suggestions for MindPlace products.

That out of the way, let's look at some of the ideas you brought forth.

Most AVS websites and information sounds like they are coming from the 80s. Believe me, I tracked down a lot of different machines through Google, YouTube and other searches. It seemed to me that I was being offered cassette players when I was looking for an iPod (does anyone really still have a portable CD player?). I saw several websites that talked about their editing software - written for Windows 95 and 98 (hardly encouraging there).

Let's not forget that most companies producing AVS products started in the 80's. MindPlace (previously Synetic Systems) started producing computerized AVS products in 1988 - before anyone else in the industry. Since the product still works very well today, and is primarily a stand-alone product, and it takes time and huge resources to create a completely new product, things tend to move slowly. It's easy in a market like MP3 players and Cell phones where millions of products are sold each year, made by huge companies, but for a small company to create a new product is very expensive and must be a guaranteed winner to make it worthwhile.

The other thing that struck me about my search was the "geek" factor to be involved. I've previewed several pieces of software with the old looking PC interface. I've read a lot of posts here, and frankly, I'll just never have the time to get to where a number of you are in tweaking and writing your sessions. It is far from intuitive - and nothing runs on a MAC. Thankfully, I have Windows 7 installed on my MAC so I have some options. It is just too difficult for the average person to modify anything, so we're stuck with all the defaults.

Producing free software for a primarily stand-alone product is expensive. MP wants to keep the price of the products affordable. The built-in programs do most of what anyone wants or needs, and only a serious enthusiast would venture into the world of writing their own sessions, since understanding the proper frequencies and how to create a session that's effective takes a lot more knowledge and research than most average users are willing to invest. I would say that learning the software is by far the easiest part of that process!
Probably 99% of the people that buy AVS products don't even care about hooking it up to their computer, believe it or not!
That all being said, I'm all for a more modern product with modern software. Do you think the public would be willing to spend more than the cost of a Procyon for something like that?

Even MindPlace's units (Procyon & Proteus) cannot share glasses (without an adaptor). The Proteus does not come with a USB cable, so I can't transfer files on my MAC with the old PC connector that comes with it.

The Procyon uses a 3-color system so the connector had to be changed to allow for the extra circuit. The adapters are inexpensive, but there's not a lot of point to running the 2-color glasses with a 3-color console, is there?

Please, I'm not trying to be negative, but this was a tough call for me. I narrowed in to the Procyon and the Nova Pro 100. The difference is the MindPlace forum - that's what helped me make the final decision.

That's nice to hear!

I've read that the market is small for AVS. No wonder when it appears to be dated technology and software. And, you gotta love all the posts about having out-of-body experiences, hallucinations (sorry, finished with LSD back in the early 70s), near death experiences and trances. Not good mainstream marketing.

There is certainly a VERY wide range of uses for the technology. I think it's great that a few products can cover the gambit of whatever anyone wants out of it. Even then there is always someone who wishes it had "this or that" additional feature. Historically, MP has tried their best to add new features to their products through firmware updates to their products.

I am the leader of an organization that has projects in 20 developing countries. I travel a lot, as do my key VPs and Directors. We are always fighting stress, sleep issues, and we need to relax. And the people I work with overseas fight the same issues. I see a lot of benefits in AVS. And I know dozens of people that would buy one of these units if it wasn't so darn clunky and hard to figure out.

Could you elaborate about what you feel is "clunky and hard to figure out" about the Procyon as a stand-alone product? If there are changes to the UI or operation that you feel would make it easier to use, I would like to know. There's actually a thread regarding suggested improvements if you would like to contribute. http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...=4858#post4858

I do see below that you have some more general suggestions, but if you have anything specific to the Procyon, that would be the thread to post.

Have three levels of AVS machines (like you do now). Each is sleek and modern looking. All the glasses are interchangeable, and software exists for both the Mac and the PC. The units include a certain amount of presets depending on price. Additional sessions are available for purchase through the website and can be easily transferred by USB from ANY computer. The unit includes the mp3 player so that AS (or a more updated standard) cuts can be added, and the units will also be able to easily blend sessions with the people's own music that they load on the mp3. The MindPlace website consolidates and offers cuts of all kinds, depending on people's needs. If relaxation is my purpose, I could buy 10 more relaxation sessions for $10 or whatever, and transfer it easily. You'd lose the bulky headphones and have a decent set of earbuds (upgradable to better ones, of course). You have a built in rechargeable battery on the top unit or two. So then, you have your AVS unit (which includes mp3), earbuds and glasses in a sleek, protected carry bag that can be taken everywhere. People won't be tied to a computer and will take these with them. Of course, you could offer even more experiences on the MAC and PC, at an additional cost, of course.

All great suggestions. Again, these take time and money to design and build. In this economy, would there be enough sales of these higher-priced products to pay for the R&D required to make it happen?

Everywhere you turn, both in the US and overseas, stress is one of the things that is most talked about in the news and in personal conversations. People want to relax. AVS is not in the mainstream because it looks like old technology, has a big geek factor to do anything, and frankly has too many people posting about tripping out on them. However, in the reviews I read, I also saw how many people have benefitted from them through relaxation and stress release. There are also focus and performance applications. Think of all the people from 30 to 70 that are running at breakneck speed in their lives. You have the answer! And, believe me, they have the money to spend on that answer.

I agree that it certainly would not hurt if there was more knowledge of the products and their benefits.

In my sphere just in CS, I know a dozen people that would not blink an eye at dropping $500 for something to help them - I just can't recommend something that is so difficult to grow with and is so unwieldy with having to carry my iPod on top of a too-large unit, earphones and glasses.. They'd be the ones that would buy all the add-ons, sessions, music tracks, etc., down the road. I think the AVS world is sitting on a gold mine, but all I hear is about how limited the market is. Nay, not so. I'm not made out of money, but I'll shell out a bunch if I think it will benefit my wife and I. I looked at units several hundreds of dollars more than the Procyon. But, you have a forum of loyal people (the start of your social networking campaign) who are committed to this company. That's why I decided to start here. If you made things easy, the $380 I dropped on the Procyon and AS CDs would just be a start. Make it easy for me to grow with this - tell me why I need another kind of glasses for a certain mode - these kinds of CDs and sessions for my particular focus, and you'll have my credit card plunked down many times in the future.

Sounds good. What should this new machine look like?

My wife is a massage therapist and is interested in relaxation. She deals everyday with the stressed out public. If my unit wasn't so clunky and hard to operate and expand, she'd be recommending them to clients.

Again, could you please elaborate on what you feel is hard to operate about the Procyon.

Sorry for the long post. I just see a tremendous opportunity here to move this industry forward by leaps and bounds.

Not at all! Your enthusiasm and interest are great. Love to toss around new ideas!

[DinsdaleT]

I've had similar thoughts to those suggested. Some musings on your idea:

I find that the Procyon is simple and works and; given the size of the market; is well priced. It might not have an ipod dock but it works fine with my creative labs MP3 player for Audiostrobe, so I'm kind of glad I don't need to buy an I-pod. I've downloaded AS sessions and used them with my procyon without recourse to CDs.

You seem to want a procyon that looks like an Ipod because it would be easier to market to people concerned more with aesthetics. I know what you mean about cassette players, I have a Sony Walkman about the same size. So invent bluetooth or usb glasses for an I-Pod touch or I-Phone, along with an app that does what the Procyon does, and you have what you want. You also have some saving on development costs, but some concession of revenue and independence to Apple.

What you've suggested could be a wonderful venture, or could be a failure, not every "better" product is successful. For all I know mindplace may already have a business that works for them and they're happy with, and may already have a development path in mind.

The issue here is risk. If you'd like to take on the risk, and have access to venture capital, or a bottomless pit of money, you should let them know.

As for your Kiosk marketing idea, you could apply to be a reseller and sell them that way. I bought my procyon through a reseller because they keep stock in Australia, was no more expensive than ordering direct from Mindplace, so it would appear that their "channel" is well managed. If your kiosk marketing business was successful enough to bring the AVS market main stream then you might have the market to develop the product you want.

[MWP]

Please forgive lack of protocol here by not quoting every response, but for the sake of expediency, I'll try to cover the questions raised. I first of all want to point out two things:

1. Before I took the position I now hold, I spent over 30 years in radio broadcasting. I was known for leading our brainstorming sessions where I would throw lots of ideas out - and some actually made the cut (while most didn't, but stimulated some great ideas along the way). These are MY feelings as one who is new to this and not an avid, long time AVS fan.

2. I am very mindful of who is hosting this site and I deeply respect the discourse that takes place here. That was a deciding factor in my purchase - you are engaging users and have a place for people to ask questions and make comments. There was no promotion intended for any other brand, just one reference to more current-style marketing. I now own one of your products - and am invested in a Procyon - and for all of us, I want the company to grow.

On the subject of software, I see the possibilities for three levels:
1. The basic package that would accompany every purchase would be software that allows the user a menu system to add, remove, and organize their library easily, whether that's sessions or mp3s (this dream thing will have an mp3 player, right?). That's it - easy on and off.
2. The second tier package would perhaps be included as part of the high end purchase, but an extra expense option for others. It would be simple mix software that would allow me to import sessions as well as music. I could set the levels of each, and then save back to an mp3 file that would include all the beat and light cues along with the music of MY choice.
3. The third tier would be software that allows people to build and edit their own sessions. This would not be part of the purchase, because most people aren't interested in it. Those who are would pay for the software, but, alas, in my dream world, would be able to market their sessions. If through you, they would be tested and if found to meet your standards, would be offered on the MP web site along with a lot more download opportunities.

As to what the machine will look like. First, let me tell why I don't think AVS is quite ready for prime time. The thought of people my age sitting down and listening to beats and pulses and flashing lights probably has little appeal - it's a bit of a hard sell, and tough to get people to buy into without trying it first. But, people know the power of music. As I have been goofing around with this, I found the insertion of music makes it a more enjoyable experience for me - and one more people would gravitate towards. For example, at lunch I did the #16, Regeneration, but put music behind. I put the iPod on shuffle on a particular playlist that's a little more beat oriented (BTW, Dido's "Here With Me" fit the bill nicely) (I put Dean Evanson's Eagle River album under the Night Voyage and it was awesome). I had adjusted the session to be in the audible range, but low. The music was on top. During quieter passages and between cuts you could hear the session beats but it was not distracting. I assume that if it's in the audible range, even if it is under the music and can't be distinctly heard, it is still interpreted by the brain. Overall, for me, it was a more enjoyable session. That's why I think music will inherently make this more mainstream.

So, the player itself would be about the size of an iPhone, perhaps a little thicker. The Procyon is not huge but is a bit too bulky (I can fit it in a shirt pocket). I'm not an engineer so am making assumptions about the miniaturization of circuits. No need for a separate player. This unit will fit comfortably in your pocket with both the headphone jack and glasses jack on top. Right now one is on the top and one is on the side, which doesn't allow for shirt operation! This makes it inherently more transportable. Using earbuds instead of phones, you could have a protective case for the glasses (which I would like to see included for extra protection) and still fit the unit in a case half the size of the one that came with the Procyon.

So, with a small case and a smaller unit, I take it on the airplane with me. I listen to a meditative or relaxing cut at the beginning of the flight, and listen to an energy or rejuvenation cut towards the end of a flight. Personally, I would love this for the international flights I take. But, for me, music adds so much to the experience that I don't think I will use it much without. Now when I listen to music on a flight and am sitting back in cattle class, the tray is in it's full and locked position, the ipod in my pocket with in-ear phones, and I pull up the blanket and stretch out as much as possible. To hook up the unit and mp3 player and glasses - just too many cords and items to be convenient. BTW, I tried one of those airlines eyeshades and they cover the unit nicely, blocking out light and making it less conspicuous for those who are concerned about it. You could stuff one of those, with the MP logo in the corner of course, in the case.

In reference to the operation in regard to my wife trying this on clients: Again, music is important. My wife has been gone since I received this unit. Probably a good thing or she would think I am neglecting her. I told her about it and she wasn't very open. When we talked about using it with some of her music, she was more receptive. Thing is, then you have to adjust the session level, adjust the music level, then start both separately. You've got the Procyon unit and the ipod hanging off it. The Procyon itself is easy to use, but when you add another unit and cords, and have to adjust controls on both, it's not so easy or convenient for my wife to try this on someone. After she tries it, I'll let you know what she thinks (although she is NO fiend to technology).

The whole thing would be to provide everything necessary in the basic unit. Entry level might have lesser glasses, the same unit with perhaps 1GB of RAM for the music, 20 sessions and a half dozen cuts of AS type music (I say AS, but with glasses being more complex, you'd develop a new protocol). From there, they purchase better glasses and download more cuts of music, as well as purchase additional packages of sessions. The Basic organization software is included, but #2 above is at an additional charge.

The mid unit might be the same as above with 2GB of RAM, upgraded glasses and a dozen cuts of music, along with 30 sessions.

The premium would come with 4GB RAM, top of the line glasses, the #2 software above, and a full library of sessions and AS music.

The idea would be to get the machine out there, but build in plenty of opportunities for accessories, music, sessions and other add ons through your web site. You don't have to develop everything, just be a repository and take your % of each sale. Right now, other than a few CDs of AS music, you don't have much opportunity for after the sale profits.

I love early adopting. Most of your users that have been doing this for ages are snorting, but it is still a small market. I had the Kindle the first day it was released before hardly anyone knew about them. I can't tell you how many people asked me about it. I'll bet I sold a few for Amazon. There is plenty of research to stand behind AVS, and people are looking for anything that can help them de-stress - we're spending billions on drugs to calm anxieties and to help us sleep. My thoughts are just my preferences. This is NOT a criticism of your product because I am enjoying it as it is. I just think that music is an important element for the entertainment mainstream, and it ought to be a part of the unit itself. It wouldn't be designed to replace an iPod or mp3 player - just to contain it as a basic feature of the AVS experience.

Thanks for listening. I'm invested in you now, and I figure the more mainstream it is, the better it will be for me, too. I'll be in line for the all-new MP device!

Mark

PS. Andy, I know you'll probably read this to the end, so rather than make another post, can I ask a few questions?

1, With the AS encoded cuts, do they include both light and pulse information, or just lights? (BTW, you shipped my AS CDs today, so am looking forward to getting them)

2. Is there any way that you can mix one of your session cuts with music and then be able to save back into an mp3 cut (my idea behind software #2 above)? I tried with demo software from Transparent, but they will not directly import your session. I don't want to even try to design my own sessions, but I'd love to be able to put together cuts incorporating my music and your sessions. I could put together multiple cuts for a single session, one with atmosphere music, one with acoustic, one with nature sounds, etc. Then all I would have to do is save the cut on my mp3 player, and play the cut I wanted. No trial and error mixing or grabbing a playlist each time, etc. Great selling point to allow people to use their own music for their experience, eh? Most won't, but that's why you'll stock a lot of cuts for download (as this grows, believe me, more people will join in the fray to produce the music/sessions).

3. What is the take on the level of the pulses? I read somewhere they can even be slightly below the audible range and the brain still receives the message. As long as it is audible, even if the music overrides it, it is still information received by the brain, right?

Thanks much for your patience.

[Andy]

Good suggestions and ideas, Mark.

I'll take your questions to another post so we can keep this thread on-topic.

New thread here: http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...=5743#post5743

-Andy.