The integrity of light and sound/ave technology

[caleb]

I've mentioned it a couple of times - but it's difficult for me to separate fact from fiction in looking into theories surrounding this technology. Nearly every website I come across is trying to sell me something which coincidentally is supported by the amount of literature they've chosen to make available.

Even an independent study doesn't seem that independent when it's selectively chosen amongst many which may contradict.

I'm not having a go at the theory of binaural beat entrainment or MindPlace here - but from my perspective, it's difficult to distinguish a difference between MindPlace and another company in this regard.

I think this is actually detrimental to the take-up of the technology. If this stuff actually does give us more control over our mental state, then this is a far more important discovery than is implied by the small market enjoying the technology currently.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reaction people are having to this information as it's currently being presented is probably similar to the reaction I have when looking at the latest "It will change your life in 30 days guaranteed!" infomercial.

In all fairness - I believe that there are some companies that are not trying to sell the technology like the next wonder drug (although it may actually be moreso than the current bunch of wonder drugs any way), but I think acceptance of this technology is a "shift" for many people.

I mean - to me it's stupid that people will approach light and sound with a complete distrust and even fear when there seems to be no such problem swallowing any chemical a doctor (or even charlatan) will recommend.

My partner used to be on anti-depressants, but is now studying neuroscience/psychology and the comment today was - if I knew then what I know now about anti-depressants I probably would never have taken them.

I won't even take Panadol myself unless I'm totally desperate - I'd rather suffer.

Anyway - all this is leading somewhere.

Do you think there are ways in which we can present information (and I don't just mean the information that helps sell one thing and not another) to the world so that people have ready access to various theories and an explanation on how such theories can be explored without making them feel like there is a sales transaction behind the words?

Does anyone else think like this?

I mean - I'm yet to determine for myself whether the technology is life changing (or at least mind changing) for me personally, but if I did - I wouldn't want people not to experience it just because it feels like some big marketing machine. I would want them to be able to go somewhere where they can get access to all sorts of information on the subject, even experience it themselves without it being perceived as a ploy to generate a sale.

Yep - that's right. Another set of thoughts bouncing around my head.

Regards
Caleb

[Marisa]

Hi Caleb,

I've mentioned it a couple of times - but it's difficult for me to separate fact from fiction in looking into theories surrounding this technology. Nearly every website I come across is trying to sell me something which coincidentally is supported by the amount of literature they've chosen to make available.

That is the beauty and problem with the Internet. You can't believe everything you read. You have to discern what is a credible source.

It's not a lot different than what you see with alternative health cures. In order to discern the fact from fiction, you really need to put on your critical thinking cap and look at the source and compare what they are claiming to the majority of the research. Also take a look at the research and take the size of the study, who put on the study and the date of the study into consideration. Some of the studies are really old and since then, new findings have been found.

It may also be helpful to learn more about the basic technology associated with light and sound through learning about Neurofeedback (which also uses EEG) and biofeedback (using EEG). Both sciences relate to brain wave entrainment and use similar methods for achieving a state, such as light and sound. The more you can learn about the brain in general, the more you will develop a discerning eye for BS.

Even an independent study doesn't seem that independent when it's selectively chosen amongst many which may contradict.

There may be contradictions because one study may get "X" results and another study gets "y" results. You'll find that there are not huge conflicts in the results, just differences in how to get the results - ie binaural beats vs isochronic beats, dual BBs vs single Bin beats, open eye vs closed eye. In these cases, one form of the technology may be stronger than the other but not so much that it renders the other technology useless. People are getting results with isochronic beats just as they are getting results with binaural beats. One is old technology (isochronic) and the other is new technology (binaural). Both work.

I'm not having a go at the theory of binaural beat entrainment or MindPlace here - but from my perspective, it's difficult to distinguish a difference between MindPlace and another company in this regard.

Well, Mindplace isn't conducting their own research though many researchers do use our machines (and others) in their research. There is no conflict of interest in the studies that have used our machines.

I think this is actually detrimental to the take-up of the technology. If this stuff actually does give us more control over our mental state, then this is a far more important discovery than is implied by the small market enjoying the technology currently.

Brain wave entrainment is not new technology, what is new is the different ways manufacturers are creating to use the technology. As technology advances, it allows the manufacturers to improve on their technology, making better products.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reaction people are having to this information as it's currently being presented is probably similar to the reaction I have when looking at the latest "It will change your life in 30 days guaranteed!" infomercial.

That has to do with advertising not the quality of the product.

I mean - to me it's stupid that people will approach light and sound with a complete distrust and even fear when there seems to be no such problem swallowing any chemical a doctor (or even charlatan) will recommend.

That just comes from not understanding how it works. It's the same with people who are afraid of hypnosis because they believe that the hypnotist has control over their mind. Distrust means that the person does not have enough information yet and needs to do more research on the product before making a decision.

My partner used to be on anti-depressants, but is now studying neuroscience/psychology and the comment today was - if I knew then what I know now about anti-depressants I probably would never have taken them.

Why? All antidepressants do is keep your serotonin circulating in your brain longer, which is a good thing if you do not have enough of this brain chemical in your system. It doesn't change who you are. They are only dangerous if you don't have a deficiency in this area.

I won't even take Panadol myself unless I'm totally desperate - I'd rather suffer.

I'd rather take the drug and get on with things. Suffering ... bad.

Anyway - all this is leading somewhere.

LOL where? Just kidding. I think it's leading to a discussion on critical thinking and how to make your way through the forest of information and propaganda.

Do you think there are ways in which we can present information (and I don't just mean the information that helps sell one thing and not another) to the world so that people have ready access to various theories and an explanation on how such theories can be explored without making them feel like there is a sales transaction behind the words?

I think we are doing it by having conversations about the technology, questioning it and considering the sources. There really needs to be more scientific research conducted in the area using the different methods of delivery but that takes money. What we can do is try to look at things objectively and educate ourselves on bullshit detection.

I mean - I'm yet to determine for myself whether the technology is life changing (or at least mind changing) for me personally, but if I did - I wouldn't want people not to experience it just because it feels like some big marketing machine. I would want them to be able to go somewhere where they can get access to all sorts of information on the subject, even experience it themselves without it being perceived as a ploy to generate a sale.

Keep in mind that it is through sales that allow the creators or manufacturers of this equipment to bring us good equipment at affordable prices. How else can they inform the public that such machines are available? At least the machines do work in the area of brain wave entrainment, unlike some of the other alternative health BS products such as "oxygenated water" which people pay lots of money for and get nothing in return.

It's "new age" claims about what the machines can do that are detrimental to the science. Astral projection, OBE and lucid dreaming are all states of mind that occur within the mind. The New Age community endeavors to make these states "magical" which lead many to believe that if you put on one of these machines, you will be carted off on a mystical tour of the universe (which you very well may, if your imagination allows you to go there). The thing is - achieving these "states" depends on the person's use of their imagination not conducting some magical transference to another plane of existence. The machines work on brain waves, not alternate realities.

[caleb]

It's "new age" claims about what the machines can do that are detrimental to the science. Astral projection, OBE and lucid dreaming are all states of mind that occur within the mind. The New Age community endeavors to make these states "magical" which lead many to believe that if you put on one of these machines, you will be carted off on a mystical tour of the universe (which you very well may, if your imagination allows you to go there). The thing is - achieving these "states" depends on the person's use of their imagination not conducting some magical transference to another plane of existence. The machines work on brain waves, not alternate realities.

I agree with this in many ways.
Although the areas you are mentioning are of great interest to me - I don't think they (in themselves) are the "selling point" of this technology. This is more how someone might take the next step using the benefits that this technology gives you.

What I've noticed when starting to look into this stuff is just how little control I have over my own thoughts - how completely undisciplined by mind really is. It's astounding that alarm bells haven't been going off for me before, but thinking about this situation led me to several thoughts about the world - and some of the things that might be considered wrong about it.

How many people are suffering or causing suffering because they have so little control over their own mind?

I'm not talking necessarily about any specific mental illnesses - but I might go so far as to say we all are suffering from mental illness. The inability to exhibit any more than minimal control over our mind.

Light and Sound - AVE - these are not the answers, just tools. Flat out mediation is also a useful tool.

Strangely enough - meditation is still largely considered "New Age", not only that but there are some religions out there that will call meditation satanic! Just ask a Jehovah's Witness.

The thing about the concept of entrainment I like is that more traditional methods can be really difficult to gain considerable benefit from because of the very things you are trying to improve. The advantage of this technology that I see is it can act like training wheels - helping you reach states more easily - showing you the way, so that if you were to consider other ways, it might be a little easier.

I was thinking of biofeedback combined with a computer program for example - a game. MindPlace actually has this already as to some other companies. But I was thinking if such a set up could be used with children at a reasonable age - I'm guessing somewhere in primary school, they could probably start developing their own control (through feedback learning) of their own mental faculties. They might be able to focus on studies, might be able to control their own emotional responses more readily. Surely there are a number of significant advantages not just to those who experience such training, but to the society in which such people live.

Forgetting whether this specific technology can bring about these changes on a society or not for the moment, those kinds of changes in themselves are worthy goals yes?

So if there was evidence, or at least preliminary findings, to indicate that such a thing is possible, wouldn't you want to pursue such a goal with vigour?

-----

Anyway - back to the actual industry, what I think I was trying to get at, is that I think it might be good if there were more advocates willing to communicate the benefits and provide information to the public who were not in some way financially benefiting from the take-up of the technology.

One person conducting a study is not enough. It has to be people who are synthesising large amounts of information provided by studies and experiments who are presenting their own findings and referencing the same pool of information with an unbiased "feeling".

There have been people like this in the past, but once they saw the benefits of the technology they tended to create entities through which they could profit from the technology. That doesn't invalidate their findings or their opinions, but it does make them a bit harder to swallow.

Regards
Caleb

[Marisa]

I agree with this in many ways.
Although the areas you are mentioning are of great interest to me

They certainly are interesting subjects.

What I've noticed when starting to look into this stuff is just how little control I have over my own thoughts - how completely undisciplined by mind really is.

This is something that has interested me for a very long time and led to my studying the occult, NLP, hypnosis, martial arts etc. The good news is - the mind can be disciplined and you can have absolute control over everything in your mind. You can have control over your emotions, your memories, your thoughts - anything. It does take time and practice - sort of like learning martial arts or yoga, where you learn to control your body - the same is possible also with the mind.

It's astounding that alarm bells haven't been going off for me before, but thinking about this situation led me to several thoughts about the world - and some of the things that might be considered wrong about it.

mmm and there is lots wrong with it. lol

How many people are suffering or causing suffering because they have so little control over their own mind?

Very, very many!

I'm not talking necessarily about any specific mental illnesses - but I might go so far as to say we all are suffering from mental illness. The inability to exhibit any more than minimal control over our mind.

I think the mental health industry is too quick to "diagnose" irregularities as a "mental illness". I think it's absurd to categorize addiction as a disease. The good news is that the neuroscience field is discovering new things about the brain and how certain exercises can help prevent the brain from aging and help damaged brains regain some of their abilities. Fascinating stuff.

Light and Sound - AVE - these are not the answers, just tools. Flat out mediation is also a useful tool.

I agree. L&S is a tool, just like biofeedback, mental exercises, meditation etc.

Strangely enough - meditation is still largely considered "New Age", not only that but there are some religions out there that will call meditation satanic! Just ask a Jehovah's Witness.

LOL Don't get me started on religion.

The thing about the concept of entrainment I like is that more traditional methods can be really difficult to gain considerable benefit from because of the very things you are trying to improve. The advantage of this technology that I see is it can act like training wheels - helping you reach states more easily - showing you the way, so that if you were to consider other ways, it might be a little easier.

Entrainment can be very useful in many ways. If a person, lets say, has problems concentrating - then some Beta/SMR sessions will help the brain get back up to par. If a person has lots of stress in his or her life, Alpha/Theta training will help the brain remember how to calm down. Things can be made easy and still work well. For example, some games such as Majong Tile or Memory Tiles - are a simple game and yet, they do help exercise the brain. Verbal based games such as "anagrams" or scrabble help the brain in the verbal memory area (which is one of the first areas to suffer when one ages). Yet, with doing some of these exercises, the brain doesn't have to decline as a person gets older.

I was thinking of biofeedback combined with a computer program for example - a game. MindPlace actually has this already as to some other companies. But I was thinking if such a set up could be used with children at a reasonable age - I'm guessing somewhere in primary school, they could probably start developing their own control (through feedback learning) of their own mental faculties.

"Mental Games" - yes - good for children and adults. I just bought the Nintendo Light today and the game "Brain Age" - which I'm assuming is similar to Mental Games ... I'll soon find out. Adults need to exercise the brain, perhaps even more than children because most of our brain work involves using what we already know and not learning new things. When we don't learn new things or practice our mental skills, we lose the ability. The neurons over write the old programs and expand the brain area that we are using. It's good and bad.

They might be able to focus on studies, might be able to control their own emotional responses more readily. Surely there are a number of significant advantages not just to those who experience such training, but to the society in which such people live.

True. It's a mind body balance as well. You need the proper nutrition to keep your brain strong and emotional health. You need the right skills to deal with stress, anger, disappointment etc. in order to have more control. You have to learn how to control the emotions and explore other options in problem solving in order to be able to control the emotions. NLP training is excellent for this because it helps one understand why they react the way they do and how to make it better. Shambala and Buddhists also have some good work on emotional and mental control. In some areas of occult study, a great deal of focus is put on mental and emotional control.

Forgetting whether this specific technology can bring about these changes on a society or not for the moment, those kinds of changes in themselves are worthy goals yes?

I think so.

So if there was evidence, or at least preliminary findings, to indicate that such a thing is possible, wouldn't you want to pursue such a goal with vigor?

I would, I have and I still do.
-----

Anyway - back to the actual industry, what I think I was trying to get at, is that I think it might be good if there were more advocates willing to communicate the benefits and provide information to the public who were not in some way financially benefiting from the take-up of the technology.

What are your ideas on how this could be done. Maybe like the idea of a "Ministry of the Mind" which focuses on emotional and mental well-being without all the religious or spiritual over tones?

One person conducting a study is not enough. It has to be people who are synthesizing large amounts of information provided by studies and experiments who are presenting their own findings and referencing the same pool of information with an unbiased "feeling".

I think it is going on, it just may be difficult to access the published studies. They may appear in some obscure journals. PubMed is a pretty good source to root around for studies on various things.

There have been people like this in the past, but once they saw the benefits of the technology they tended to create entities through which they could profit from the technology. That doesn't invalidate their findings or their opinions, but it does make them a bit harder to swallow.

Have heart - they are still out there. They are just a bit tricky to find. There are many brilliant people who are doing this sort of thing because of a love for the knowledge and technology. People like Robert who have a wealth of knowledge in the area and yet do not write articles or books about it. People like Thomas Budzynski who have some written work but it's not that easy to find. I think what Landgraf is doing with the AVS Journal is wonderful and I don't mind that they make some money from their efforts because we all need money to live on and if they can earn some money from their research or products - then we, the public benefit.

Michael Hutchison did great work in the field as far as reporting on it, writing books on the subject - all these things take time and not everyone can afford to do it for free.

The ones who suck are the people who steal the technology from companies such as Mindplace (won't name names but it has happened) and then market their own products, which are inferior because they stole the technology and don't fully understand it so the products they make are simply not as good - and they feed bs to the public about their crappy products. It's those people, the unethical ones that are just out to make as much money as possible and not further the technology. Okay, I'm ranting ... lol

Well, places like this forum are a great way to do that which you wish to see. With having our programs open source then it allows the community to write good software to use with the machines and share them with the community. Forums are great places to inform others, teach and share information. So ... we just need more people to contribute. It is coming along well.

[caleb]

What are your ideas on how this could be done. Maybe like the idea of a "Ministry of the Mind" which focuses on emotional and mental well-being without all the religious or spiritual over tones?

I don't think it's necessary to avoid mentioning more "New Age" topics - but just to present them in a light that doesn't claim that's what the technology is for. It's not "for" that - it just it what it is and we have an opportunity to benefit from it in many ways.

I have a domain myself on the web, and I could always start putting together a website, but the problem is that I'm not a scientist, or a researcher and carry no qualification on the subject.

However, if I did so, I may put some stuff up there for distribution that may be particular to the machine I'm working on (Procyon) which may make me appear biased.

I like the concept of SynchroMuse for example (provided I can get it to work - and with compressed formats which might never be the case) and I wouldn't mind distributing (not for profit) sessions based on that technology. The good thing is that those who use Procyon can benefit from both the audio and visual, but even those who don't can profit from the audio.

I probably wouldn't consider AudioStrobe at the moment because the licensing will probably not allow me to distribute sessions free of charge.

I might even develop a program along the lines of Brainwave Generator etc.. but for free distribution so that people can explore at least that side without having to 'buy' anything.

If that were to happen, I might even be able to interface the program to Procyon with MindPlace's cooperation so that the sessions could automatically be exported as SynchroMuse and it provided another interface into Procyon programming.

These are all just ideas bouncing around in my very undisciplined mind, but realistically I wouldn't have time to maintain this kind of thing myself - I would need quite a bit of help.

Regards
Caleb

[Robert Austin]

Caleb, you've raised a lot of interesting points--thanks to Marisa for addressing them--a few responses of my own:

--I think it would be wonderful if you were to develop any software to help others gain a better use of their Procyon!

--We don't make claims outside of "personal growth" for our machines in part because I personally don't like to do that and in part because light and sound machines are not "medical devices"; if we discuss clinical studies involving the treatment of medical conditions, the FDA could take action against us. This has happened to several L&S manufacturers over the years, usually for making excessive claims, but they harassed us in the mid-90s for indicating that they affect brainwave activity--which is why we no longer mention that. You are clearly quite intelligent and will be able to sort out real information (studies) from marketing hyperbole online; for reviewing basic research try pubmed for starters.

--Robert