Sleep Programs vs. Actual Sleep

[mattlambertson]

So I recently acquired a Kasina and several times I have used some of the "Night Voyage" programs before going to sleep, and found them very relaxing, only to afterwards discover that it was impossible to go to sleep properly, instead I was stuck in a strange, unrestful, half-asleep state where I could not achieve REM and I woke up fully almost every single hour of the night. It was not until 6 hours after I used the Kasina that I could actually catch a few hours of "normal" sleep. Is this what's supposed to happen, or is my brain not responding to the lights as it should?

I rather wonder why there is so much blue light in the "night voyage" programs when blue light has been shown to suppress melatonin production. But that can't be the entire issue because when I try taking a large dose of supplemental melatonin to overcome the Kasina-induced hyper-alertness of my brain, there is little or no change.

I am new to light machines so I apologize if I am misunderstanding how they are meant to be used.

[TomC]

I don't think that the Kasina has much to do with the sleep pattern(s) you describe. Sounds like the ones I get after a bit too much Scotch before bedtime, lol!

Personally I find the Kasina lights do not work as well for me for sleep induction as they used to with my older Proteus machine. Not sure why? They are a bit brighter so turning them down a bit seems to help but not much. Just using audio (no glasses) seems to work best for me now.

If I were you I would try to find one of the Night Voyage sessions that seems to work best for you (I like submerge-level1) and stick with it. Try turning the light intensity down and/or try it without the glasses. If I wake up in the middle of the night (usual bathroom trip) and cannot get back to sleep I just replay the session and this seems to help.

Good luck with all this from a longtime insomniac!

Cheers,
TomC

[mattlambertson]

Thanks, I will try it with a greatly reduced brightness setting and see if that's any better for me. I had it on maximum brightness because I love the lights! That's the main reason I got it. Trust me when I say I have never experienced sleep patterns like this outside the few times I tried the Kasina before bed, so it was definitely a direct result of using it, but I don't mean that as a criticism of the device, I am just wondering how best to use it. I don't often have trouble sleeping so the main reason I'm using it before bed is as a meditation aid, so as to try to find a more positive state of mind before venturing into dream-land.

[neuroasis]

There is an increasing set of data regarding LEDs and their effect on the human circadian system. This is due to their widespread usage in more commercial products, specifically LED light bulbs. Most previous studies on the effects of light wavelength and color in suppressing the production of melatonin have been undertaken under relatively long exposures, in the duration of minutes usually but with some studies in seconds or hundreds of milliseconds. We follow this research with interest.

A recent study published in October 2013 began to track the effects of blue light in small millisecond pulse trains. You can read this study here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3795006/

This type of study is more useful to understanding the melatonin suppression effects of our particular technologies. The conclusion was that depending on the brightness of the source, short flashes of blue light did suppress melatonin production. So, this finding could be significant in how we approach sleep sessions.

If you find that it is affecting your sleep pattern and can narrow it to that factor alone, then it would be advisable not to do that session. However, the Kasina is part of a long line of AVS devices with similar approaches to sleep programs from which many people have benefitted. This may be due to increasing relaxation while reducing internal chatter plus the rhythmic stimulus, in those who have occasional sleep issues rather than a chronic cycle shift.

That said, as new data comes in, we are always learning and perfecting our sessions. Your feedback on how the programs affect you is important to us. Please continue to report your experiences.

Best,
Scott

[Robert Austin]

Mattlambertson, this thread has sparked considerable internal discussion at MindPlace. Would you be willing to try an experiment? I would suggest that you run the Sleep Cycle session in the AudioStrobe folder, and set the ColorSets to either red and green, or red only... and let us know about what you experience.

Thanks in advance,

Robert

[synaesthesia]

Sounds like blue light may be a factor. I think also that simple light and sound pulse is all thats needed for effective sleep inducement. Even the 15 minute sleep program on my Proteus still works wonders for me and thats been over 10 years . I have tried a few of the Spectrastrobe sessions on the Kasina and found them a bit busy with recognizable sounds and they didn't induce sleep for me - I think any soundtrack with complex sounds encourages stronger beta activity which is counter productive . I know all the old Sirius sessions are on the Kasina - I would recommend playing with the Sirius sleep programs as an another tack and see if a very simple session works better. As the Kasina format doesn't use much space I look forward to seeing more sessions from the Proteus and Procyon to upload ( although I am not sure that it is capable of producing them at this time ie individidual colour control ) .

[neuroasis]

Concerning audio content most likely it would depend on the person and how analytical they are concerning music and how familiar with the piece. Personally, I now find overt pulsing tones to be distracting. I never did like clear cut isochronic tones that weren't masked by some other drone element. For relaxation that is.. now low tones and bass range drums (with harmonic content like those with skin heads... djembes, frame drums..etc), I like those as pulses. Honestly, I can't say that I don't like them, just that I don't prefer them given a choice.

I feel that a drone element is a key to diffusion of consciousness as it can act as almost an audio ganzfeld. For sleep sessions I ultimately go to white/pink/brown noise (not that brown noise ). The Sleep Cycle session is my take on one method of how to structure them.

The Dream Recall session http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...t=dream+recall is using a technique at the beginning with downward Shephard Tones that I find very effective as it is a descending 'drone with movement'.

So ultimately we want to provide variety or provide tools for people to create their own sessions. I know several people that can't sleep without the tv on (which I would never do as I like to have some say in the content my brain is being fed), others play music, but the vast majority just sleep.

More study will come with light. I sometimes play with my sleep schedules and am free to do so. I have sleep monitoring EEG's (the Zeo being the most comfortable) so I can tell objectively what the effect is.

Scott

[Thalassa]

What I found out many years ago about sleep and Mindmachines (then I used a David Delight Pro) is that if I do
regularly Schumann Sessions at least once a day for about 20 minutes I need up to 2 hours less sleep per night.
Esthy