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Thread: AVS Technology Guide - V2

  1. #1
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    Default AVS Technology Guide - V2

    I deleted the V1 post (which deleted the actual thread) because I corrected the typos that were pointed out (Thank you!!!) and wanted to post the corrected copy.

    Nothing else has changed yet.

    BTW, feel free to print, post a copy on your website or hand out to students. All I ask is that you credit the author.

    If you have something that you want to see added to the guide, please feel free to submit your piece - and if I think it fits, then, you will be credited for your submission in the guide. If your submitted piece doesn't fit in this guide, it may still be of value to the forum library as either part of another document or on its own as an article.

    Please email submissions to marisa@mindplacesupport.com . If the document is large, please put it in a zip file. I work with Word, so if you are using another writing program, I may not be able to open it but that's something we can work out later.

    Cheers,

    M.
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    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
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    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Marisa,

    Thank you for the time and effort you have put into this.

    I was pleased to see an answer to one question I've been pondering - the equivalency of pure and mixed colored light. Unfortunately the citation link is a dead end. Page 7:

    ?To the eye-brain system, there is no difference in physiological & psychological response to yellow light and a mixing of red/green light. The brain has no means of distinguishing between the two physical situations.?2
    2 Source: http;//www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/class/light/ut2l2b.html


    On page 9 you compare monaural beats to drumbeats. A monaural beat is the result of two tones in one ear. A drumbeat compares more correctly to an isochronic beat. The monaural term is correctly used on page 10:

    "?Dual BBs will often (but not always) produce monoaural beats as well, since two tones are present in both ears. One exception is to keep the frequency relationships set to harmonics, for example, 200 & 400 Hz left and 206 & 412 Hz right."

    I would also make the observation that Robert is possibly a minority in the view (p10) that the pitch is relatively insignificant, as a lot of the proprietary BWE courses place high importance on pitch. There is a lot of discussion on this matter (see Transparent forums) and this is the first time I have ever seen such a definitive statement. My own experiments suggest Robert is correct - I have been able to change the pitch of effective sessions so that they sound 'nicer' and the effectiveness has been subjectively unchanged.

    The comments on precise frequencies on page 3 are excellent. I find myself wanting to scream from the rooftops, "THERE ARE NO UNIVERSAL MAGICAL ENTRAINMENT FREQUENCIES!!!"

    You've done a really good job of providing a balanced overview of a field where so little is known with certainty, and so many people have an opinion (or vested interest).

    Cheers,
    Craig

  3. Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigT View Post
    My own experiments suggest Robert is correct - I have been able to change the pitch of effective sessions so that they sound 'nicer' and the effectiveness has been subjectively unchanged.
    I think the pitch may be unimportant but setting it to be not discordant with other sounds is, at least at an aesthetic level which does also effect ones ability to relax. One of my favorite uses of the Proteus is to run it in manual mode along with ambient music. No fancy entrainment ramps, just running the machine at a certain frequency. Without initially setting the pitch of the beat tone by quickly 'blipping' the Proteus controls, I find the dischordancy between the tone and the general key signature of the music irritating and completely counter-productive if I am out to relax

    I concur with Craig..great job with the Technology Guide , Marisa. This kind of level-headed overview information was really needed.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigT View Post
    Marisa,

    Thank you for the time and effort you have put into this.
    I say the same to you.

    I was pleased to see an answer to one question I've been pondering - the equivalency of pure and mixed colored light. Unfortunately the citation link is a dead end. Page 7:

    ?To the eye-brain system, there is no difference in physiological & psychological response to yellow light and a mixing of red/green light. The brain has no means of distinguishing between the two physical situations.?2
    2 Source: http;//www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/class/light/ut2l2b.html
    Hmmmm try this link:

    http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssc...ht/u12l2b.html


    On page 9 you compare monaural beats to drumbeats. A monaural beat is the result of two tones in one ear. A drumbeat compares more correctly to an isochronic beat. The monaural term is correctly used on page 10:
    You bring up an interesting point.

    I think that a drum beat fits with both monaural and isochronic definitions. It fits with the monaural in that a drum beat produces a single (mono) note or beat. It also fits with isochronic is that usually a drum beat is an evenly spaced beat - but it doesn't have to be (it depends on who is doing the drumming). A Metronome would be more of an isochronic beat as it definitely produces an evenly spaced beat.

    I'm not sure that I agree with your definition: "a monaural beat is the result of two tones in one ear". I spent some time on the net seeing what I could find and I couldn't find anything significant either way. I was trying to find something in a medical, acoustic or scientific journal or article. I did find one defination what said monaural is "sound reception by one ear." Hmmm are we both wrong?

    "?Dual BBs will often (but not always) produce monoaural beats as well, since two tones are present in both ears. One exception is to keep the frequency relationships set to harmonics, for example, 200 & 400 Hz left and 206 & 412 Hz right."

    I would also make the observation that Robert is possibly a minority in the view (p10) that the pitch is relatively insignificant, as a lot of the proprietary BWE courses place high importance on pitch. There is a lot of discussion on this matter (see Transparent forums) and this is the first time I have ever seen such a definitive statement. My own experiments suggest Robert is correct - I have been able to change the pitch of effective sessions so that they sound 'nicer' and the effectiveness has been subjectively unchanged.
    I think that Robert was saying that pitch isn't important in entrainment mostly because the frequencies that affect EEG are what do the BWE and they are below what we can hear.

    I guess it doesn't matter how much your observations are in the minority ... if you are right.

    The comments on precise frequencies on page 3 are excellent. I find myself wanting to scream from the rooftops, "THERE ARE NO UNIVERSAL MAGICAL ENTRAINMENT FREQUENCIES!!!"
    BWE/AVS has seemed to have attracted its fair share of pseudo-science. Bah!

    You've done a really good job of providing a balanced overview of a field where so little is known with certainty, and so many people have an opinion (or vested interest).
    Thanks! My knowledge on the subject is limited. I find it's difficult enough to try to stay on top of how this stuff actually works best with the brain and I try my hardest to leave some of the more technical aspects of the science to those like yourself and Andy.

    It has been extremely difficult for me to find good and understandable information on the subject. There is a lot of information that is simply wrong, exaggerated or backed by questionable research.

    Robert is a very good source of information as he's been involved in the field for over twenty years. Not to mention, he's worked with, shared ideas and knowledge with some of the leading experts in the field such as T. Budzynski. He's a pretty humble guy who likes to be in the background, accumulating information and building cool stuff. He reminds me of the wizard on the mountain that you have to hike for days to find and even then he's a bit elusive but when you do find him and ask questions - you are richly rewarded by the depth of knowledge that comes with the answers. LOL Robert the Wizard.

    Thanks for your comments!

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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    Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Quote Originally Posted by synaesthesia View Post
    I think the pitch may be unimportant but setting it to be not discordant with other sounds is, at least at an aesthetic level which does also effect ones ability to relax. One of my favorite uses of the Proteus is to run it in manual mode along with ambient music. No fancy entrainment ramps, just running the machine at a certain frequency. Without initially setting the pitch of the beat tone by quickly 'blipping' the Proteus controls, I find the dischordancy between the tone and the general key signature of the music irritating and completely counter-productive if I am out to relax

    I concur with Craig..great job with the Technology Guide , Marisa. This kind of level-headed overview information was really needed.
    Thanks! It's not meant to be more than a starting place for those interested in the subject.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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    Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Marisa,

    Thank you for the alternate link. I wonder if a primer level physics website is really giving this matter proper consideration? What is said on this site is true for most practical purposes, however I'm yet unconvinced of the equivalency of mixed and pure color. Siever makes some interesting points in his article, http://www.mindalive.com/2_0/ch7.pdf, P7, Visual Bandwidth Factor. Siever made quite a deal of the benefits of the (broad spectrum) incandescent lamps in his early units - did these virtues vaporise when he decided to use LEDs in the later models? This is all a big fat, "Don't know" from me, but I think it deserves more consideration.

    The key word in discussion of things entrainment is "beat". A beat frequency is, by definition (see the operation of a heterodyne AM radio), the product of two frequencies. What is being distinguished is where the two frequencies interact - outside the head (monaural) or inside the head (binaural).

    Problems, I think, arise from confusing 'monaural beat' with 'mono' or 'monaural', the single channel counterpart of 'stereo'. Unless the terms are amply defined, the drum analogy can be correctly argued either way, so I guess it's not that useful in making the point.

    My intent is not to nitpick, and I'm not wishing to hold myself as the authority, but, terminology does matter. Spend a bit of time on the Transparent forum where this sort of thing gets a lot of discussion, and you'll see how much time is being wasted as people first work out if they're discussing the same thing. From Tina Huang's (Transparent Corp) blog regarding her recent AVE study (mindupdate.com/?p=97):

    "... In fact, in our comprehensive search, we found articles that have never before been mentioned by those in the brainwave entrainment development and scientific community. Why? Believe it or not, the problem is in the inconsistency in terminology used to describe BWE..."

    I'm happy to take turns being right or wrong A discussion works best when there's two sides to it. Hopefully what will emerge is the best approximation of fact/truth we can extract.

    I'm envious of your access to Robert, but I trust that you will continue to treat us to the snippets of wisdom that issue forth

    Cheers,
    Craig

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    Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Hi Craig,

    Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. It's one of those busy weeks!

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigT View Post
    Marisa,

    Thank you for the alternate link. I wonder if a primer level physics website is really giving this matter proper consideration? What is said on this site is true for most practical purposes, however I'm yet unconvinced of the equivalency of mixed and pure color.
    I think the source is adequate for the point that was made in the article. For more detailed explanations on color and vision, I agree, other sources would be more relevant. I think the basic physiology of vision and perception of color is going to be fairly simple where as the psychology of color perception may be more complex. Just my thought ... not a fact. Though I may look further into this and see if an alternate source backs up what this source has told us.

    I found this on the web that has some interesting points about color and vision: http://www.fi.edu/color/

    It says that the color blue inhibits appetite and green is most restful and easy on the eyes.

    The article also said the following: "Some people have trouble discerning colors, along with their shades and luminance. Color blindness is a color perception problem whose most common ailment is a red-green deficiency. This means that there is a lack of red or green photopigments and people have difficulty making out colors that are based on the `red to green' ratio." I think this may be relevant to some people who are not getting the color effects that others do.

    Siever makes some interesting points in his article, http://www.mindalive.com/2_0/ch7.pdf, P7, Visual Bandwidth Factor. Siever made quite a deal of the benefits of the (broad spectrum) incandescent lamps in his early units - did these virtues vaporise when he decided to use LEDs in the later models? This is all a big fat, "Don't know" from me, but I think it deserves more consideration.
    I think a lot of his science is designed to support his products. I don't really trust him as a source for information. Of course, I may be making a totally unfair judgment on the man. I would say that if his research is backed or reproduced by other independent studies then I'll accept it. Like I said, I may have an unfair bias against him. My bad.

    The key word in discussion of things entrainment is "beat". A beat frequency is, by definition (see the operation of a heterodyne AM radio), the product of two frequencies. What is being distinguished is where the two frequencies interact - outside the head (monaural) or inside the head (binaural).
    Okay, I'll buy that.

    Problems, I think, arise from confusing 'monaural beat' with 'mono' or 'monaural', the single channel counterpart of 'stereo'. Unless the terms are amply defined, the drum analogy can be correctly argued either way, so I guess it's not that useful in making the point.
    I think it matters on a more advanced level perhaps. In a basic level guide, one wants to keep things as simple as possible and in doing so, some concessions have to be made.

    My intent is not to nitpick, and I'm not wishing to hold myself as the authority, but, terminology does matter. Spend a bit of time on the Transparent forum where this sort of thing gets a lot of discussion, and you'll see how much time is being wasted as people first work out if they're discussing the same thing. From Tina Huang's (Transparent Corp) blog regarding her recent AVE study (mindupdate.com/?p=97):
    It matters to a point. That there are still discussions on meaning of the terms tells me that there isn't an exact definition for many of these terms - at least one that everyone is happy with. There are some portions of definitions that seem to be agreed on but many details that are still argued.

    I guess it depends on what information someone finds important and to what purpose. To many, it's not important how their stereo is made - they just want to enjoy the music. To an audiophile, this is not acceptable and they want to know, in great detail, all about the acoustics etc. There are so many things in life like this.

    "... In fact, in our comprehensive search, we found articles that have never before been mentioned by those in the brain wave entrainment development and scientific community. Why? Believe it or not, the problem is in the inconsistency in terminology used to describe BWE..."
    The question is: Why is there so much inconsistency in the terminology?

    I'm happy to take turns being right or wrong A discussion works best when there's two sides to it. Hopefully what will emerge is the best approximation of fact/truth we can extract.
    Sometimes truth is something that is very simple and for some odd reason, we seek to make it much more complex than it needs to be. It reminds me of Occam's Razor: "One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything".

    I'm envious of your access to Robert, but I trust that you will continue to treat us to the snippets of wisdom that issue forth
    I wish that he had more time or I could find a way to download that brain of his. In the meantime, I'm more than happy to share what I learn but in many ways, you know much more than I do about a lot of this. I study the brain and behavior but you have studied the science of AVS in much more detail that I have. I certainly appreciate the points you have brought up and it has inspired me to look into some of these aspects in more detail than I normally would.

    Also, thank you so much for all you have and continue to contribute to this forum. Your input has been most beneficial to so many of us.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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    Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Marisa,

    You are absolutely right - you have pitched your Guide absolutely perfectly. I am notorious for overcomplicating things - possibly the only person I know who includes disclaimers in ordinary conversation.

    It's good that you raise color-blindness - that's an angle on the matter I hadn't considered.

    I will confess that I have had my suspicions that there's a bit of selective research and reporting going on out there. It can bite one on the backside, however, if anyone pays attention and holds you to your last words.

    By way of confession/apology, I have been 'gifted' with Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (not the same thing as OCD), characteristics of which are obsession with minutae and 'ownership of truth'. So I am, in fact, a pathological know-it-all. I do try to keep a bit of a lid on it, and to ensure that I have a vague idea of what I'm talking about, but you may well have noticed the trend

    You are very generous, and I truly enjoy being part of this community.

    Craig

  9. #9

    Thumbs up Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Hello, from Canada,
    Just wanted to let you know that your input, & Marisa's, is being sought after, & read by someone who really appreciates it !
    Thanks for sharing with those of us who are interested in learning from those who obviously know a lot more than they do !
    Keep it coming...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: AVS Technology Guide - V2

    Thanks Ben Willow. What a nice thing to say.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
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