The Secret

[Saffyre]

Hi Geode,

There is an interesting article by Michael Hall, the NLP guy, about 'The Secret' which you should study. Basically points out that you need to see beyond the simplicity of some claims, and life is a little more complex.

http://www.neurosemantics.com/index....111&Itemid=105

Hi RichardHK (and Geode),

I read the article above and based on my own experience, I don't agree with it. Then again he appears to be writing the article from a Neuro-science perspective which is different from my own perspective of pure faith (and I would never had said those words six months ago, and no, I am not the member of a cult!).
I have never seen 'The Secret' or read the book, but I have read 'Conversations with God' by Neall Donald Walsch, and 'Ask and it is Given', by Esther and Jerry Hicks. I can recommend these titles to you, Geode, if you wish to know more about the 'Laws of Attraction' and 'Manifestation' (and iron out any details that might not have been written in The Secret). I have also been recommended 'The Power of Intention' by Dr Wayne Dyer and have listened to his CD series called 'How to lead an Inspirational Life'.

All I know is, right or wrong, it works for me...

Saffyre

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.

[Marisa]

Hi Saffyre,

This makes for a most promising and interesting debate ...

Hi RichardHK (and Geode),

I read the article above and based on my own experience, I don't agree with it. Then again he appears to be writing the article from a Neuro-science perspective which is different from my own perspective of pure faith (and I would never had said those words six months ago, and no, I am not the member of a cult!).

Michael Hall is also writing the article from a logical perspective as well.

My argument is: Faith alone is no guarantee of result.

My next argument is: One reason the "law of attraction" works (sometimes) is not because of the magic of the universe or a Deity but because our mind, when focused on a goal, notices opportunities that will take us toward achieving that goal. When our mind is focused on an outcome, our unconscious creates mental and emotional conditions that make achieving that outcome easier. In other words, when you are focused and motivated toward achieving a goal, you will be most likely able to achieve it.

I have never seen 'The Secret' or read the book, but I have read 'Conversations with God' by Neall Donald Walsch, and 'Ask and it is Given', by Esther and Jerry Hicks. I can recommend these titles to you, Geode, if you wish to know more about the 'Laws of Attraction' and 'Manifestation' (and iron out any details that might not have been written in The Secret). I have also been recommended 'The Power of Intention' by Dr Wayne Dyer and have listened to his CD series called 'How to lead an Inspirational Life'.

I am familiar with the writings of Wayne Dyer and liked his earlier work ("Pulling Your Own Strings" and "Your Erroneous Zones") which had more of a psychological/NLP basis.

Okay, here's a question regarding the "laws of Attraction": Why does the law of attraction only work some of the time and not all of the time? There are many people who believe in a god and pray for an outcome that never happens. There are many people who wish and visualize their outcome (such as winning the lottery, a large object falling on Bush's head or something good or bad happening to another human being) that never happens. If there is a law of attraction ... wouldn't it work for everyone?

Michael Hall also introduces another valid argument regarding "The Secret's" principles:

"If everything in your life, you attracted? then there can be no influence from others, from society, from nature, from political reality, from economic reality, etc. " ... and yet we are strongly influenced by those things.

...and that is my two cents ..

M.

[Saffyre]

Hi Marisa,

Oh this is going to be a long one! )

My understanding (and I have only really begun to explore this for such a short space of time) is that whatever you pay attention to, you draw towards your experience by offering up a vibration to the 'Universe' (Source, God, whatever you want to call it). 'Ask and it is Given' (which is an amazing book) explains this in terms that I could easily understand.
But you need to offer up a vibration that matches that which you desire, the universe immediately begins to respond, but then you have to allow it in to your experience.
So, a simplistic example for me would be the subject of love. If you live on your own and every one else around you is married, and all of your previous partners have treated you badly, and all you expect is that you are never going to meet anyone, and if you do, they will treat you badly, and they will leave you, then that will be your experience. And if a really nice person comes along, then you might get suspicious or you might simply suspect that they couldn't possibly be interested in you and it's all going to end in tears, and so you don't allow them in to your life for fear of getting hurt. Or alternatively you could focus on the type of person you want to be in your life and visualize being with them, being loved by them, being held by them, enjoying time with them (and anything else you wish to imagine with a partner ) So the Universe responds and aligns you up with someone that matches your vibration. They probably won't knock on your door the next day, but as long as you continue to offer up this vibration and believe that they are on their way, then it will happen. The trick is to then allow them in to your experience.
Does that make any kind of sense? The idea is to continually be aware of your emotions which are a guide to what vibrations you are offering, and to be persistent with your requests (which is not easy for the human mind to do - we are constantly changing what we focus on).
Another factor that may enter in to this comes down to Guardian Angels, which is why you cannot win the lottery by simply wishing it to be. Your Guardian Angel is looking after your interests, but they won't go in to contest with other Angels. And seeing as there are many Angels out there carrying wishes from people wanting to win the lottery, all stepping back, the winner is selected by whatever balls come up and nothing more.
This is probably why you cannot wish for a large object to fall on George Bushes' head - because his Guardian Angel is looking out for his interests.

As for attracting wealth, how many of us look at the bills that are coming in and freeze with panic, or feel annoyed? And how many people do you know who think "I'll never be rich". Wrong vibration! Show gratitude to the Universe that you are always able to pay your bills and money will start to show up...

'Ask and it is Given' explains the laws of attraction and provides 22 processes that you can use to start manifesting your desires. At the very least it can help you to be more mindful of how you react to everyday situations and people, and how that makes you feel.

I hope this response was remotely useful...

Saffyre

[Marisa]

Hi Saffyre,

Hi Marisa,

Oh this is going to be a long one! )

My understanding (and I have only really begun to explore this for such a short space of time) is that whatever you pay attention to, you draw toward your experience by offering up a vibration to the 'Universe' (Source, God, whatever you want to call it).

While I agree with you that this does happen, I disagree with you on the how and why. What ever you pay attention to, you draw toward your experience (because that is how brains and minds work).

But you need to offer up a vibration that matches that which you desire, the universe immediately begins to respond, but then you have to allow it in to your experience.

In order for us to be happy or fulfilled with our goal, it has to be compatible with our values and beliefs. If what we are doing is incongruent with our higher values, then we will feel unsatisfied, discontent.

So, a simplistic example for me would be the subject of love. If you live on your own and every one else around you is married, and all of your previous partners have treated you badly, and all you expect is that you are never going to meet anyone, and if you do, they will treat you badly, and they will leave you, then that will be your experience.

Yes, it will be your experience because the mind always goes toward what we think about - which is also why so many people end up getting all the things they don't want. It doesn't have anything to do with the universe or god - it has to do with how the brain and mind works.

And if a really nice person comes along, then you might get suspicious or you might simply suspect that they couldn't possibly be interested in you and it's all going to end in tears, and so you don't allow them in to your life for fear of getting hurt.

Because of the earlier thought virus created by the mind. That "thought virus" does have a positive intent which usually has it's origin in either trying to avoid pain or seek pleasure. It's just that the mind came up with a way to achieve it's goal but has created a whole slew of other problems in the making. Kind of like a computer program with a bug in it.

Or alternatively you could focus on the type of person you want to be in your life and visualize being with them, being loved by them, being held by them, enjoying time with them (and anything else you wish to imagine with a partner ) So the Universe responds and aligns you up with someone that matches your vibration.

If you focus on the type of person you want in your life and visualize all the other things, your mind will go toward choosing someone that fits that which you are focusing on.

They probably won't knock on your door the next day, but as long as you continue to offer up this vibration and believe that they are on their way, then it will happen. The trick is to then allow them in to your experience.

To open your eyes and become aware of opportunities. To have an attitude that is congruent with being a happier person and attracting functional people into your life.

Does that make any kind of sense? The idea is to continually be aware of your emotions which are a guide to what vibrations you are offering, and to be persistent with your requests (which is not easy for the human mind to do - we are constantly changing what we focus on).

You are correct except substitute the word "vibrations" with "attitude" and we are on the same page.

Another factor that may enter in to this comes down to Guardian Angels, which is why you cannot win the lottery by simply wishing it to be. Your Guardian Angel is looking after your interests, but they won't go in to contest with other Angels. And seeing as there are many Angels out there carrying wishes from people wanting to win the lottery, all stepping back, the winner is selected by whatever balls come up and nothing more.
This is probably why you cannot wish for a large object to fall on George Bushes' head - because his Guardian Angel is looking out for his interests.

Hmmm so if everyone has a guardian angel who is looking after our best interests - which is usually to live, be safe and happy ... so when someone gets hit by a truck or a piano falls on their head ... their guardian angel was ... doing what? The person who gets kidnapped, tortured and brutally murdered by a psychopath .. their guardian angel ... not so much doing the protecting? Given by all the mishaps in the world, either guardian angels are not that good at their job or .... maybe they don't exist.

As for attracting wealth, how many of us look at the bills that are coming in and freeze with panic, or feel annoyed? And how many people do you know who think "I'll never be rich". Wrong vibration! Show gratitude to the Universe that you are always able to pay your bills and money will start to show up...

I agree with you that if the person doesn't have the right attitude and a plan of action, they will not succeed in achieving their goal. I disagree with you that this goal has anything to do with vibrations or the universe.

I hope this response was remotely useful...

It certainly was interesting and controversial.

M.

[Saffyre]

Hi Marisa,

Hi Saffyre,

While I agree with you that this does happen, I disagree with you on the how and why. What ever you pay attention to, you draw toward your experience (because that is how brains and minds work).

I don't disagree with anything you have said from the perspective of how the brain and mind works - because I agree - that is how it works.

In order for us to be happy or fulfilled with our goal, it has to be compatible with our values and beliefs. If what we are doing is incongruent with our higher values, then we will feel unsatisfied, discontent.

But where do those values and beliefs ultimately come from? Genetics? Experience? Spirit?

Yes, it will be your experience because the mind always goes toward what we think about - which is also why so many people end up getting all the things they don't want. It doesn't have anything to do with the universe or god - it has to do with how the brain and mind works.

Perhaps I only believe these things for my own comfort, and when I die, I will be snuffed out permanently and cease to exist. But I believe that the 'higher values' that you have referred to don't come from flesh and neurons, it comes from the soul. And some of the 'coincidences' that I have seen over the past few weeks have completely affirmed my beliefs. I don't mind being wrong if at the end of the day these beliefs help me to see things differently, react differently and ultimately achieve all I desire. Either way, my time here will benefit.

Hmmm so if everyone has a guardian angel who is looking after our best interests - which is usually to live, be safe and happy ... so when someone gets hit by a truck or a piano falls on their head ... their guardian angel was ... doing what? The person who gets kidnapped, tortured and brutally murdered by a psychopath .. their guardian angel ... not so much doing the protecting? Given by all the mishaps in the world, either guardian angels are not that good at their job or .... maybe they don't exist.

I guess I warranted that response. The way that I see it, guardian angels are here to guide, not intervene in physical occurrences, whatever our experience might be. The truly enlightened (Dalai Lama, prophets, monks) do not see pain, death or suffering in the same way - they are able to accept what IS because they believe that this is a human experience as part of building our spiritual experience. Also potentially enhancing psychic awareness might lead to having a closer connection with your angel (which could be read as trusting your instinct, I guess).

I agree with you that if the person doesn't have the right attitude and a plan of action, they will not succeed in achieving their goal. I disagree with you that this goal has anything to do with vibrations or the universe.

Then that is where we differ. Nothing wrong with that! Thanks for a great and interesting discussion, cheers indeed!

It certainly was interesting and controversial.

M.

[Marisa]

Hi Saffyre,

But where do those values and beliefs ultimately come from? Genetics? Experience? Spirit?

Great question! I would say that we learn our values from experience (social learning, parents, school, the media etc.).

Our beliefs are a result of our perception about a reality. Our perception is formed by a combination of things: sensory experience (what we see, hear etc.), mood, beliefs, experience & knowledge.

Example: We see (sensory) a object moving in the night sky.

Experience - we've seen other objects move in the night sky before and they were airplanes.

Knowledge - we know there are also satellites that we also can see.

Beliefs - if the person believes in UFOs, they may discount experience and knowledge and jump to the conclusion that it's a UFO, or they may include that in their speculation as to what it is they are seeing.
If the person doesn't believe in UFOs, they may continue to speculate on other things that are causing the occurrence.

Beliefs can trump Experience and Knowledge. Beliefs are not necessarily a reflection of actual truth, although to the individual having the belief, it is a reflection of truth. Example, to the person who believes in UFOs, they may believe they saw a UFO even though evidence proves otherwise.

Beliefs can be very strong and very resistant to change.

RE: Spirit

How would you define spirit?

Perhaps I only believe these things for my own comfort, and when I die, I will be snuffed out permanently and cease to exist.

Your personality is linked to your brain & body ... so when you die (if spirit exists) you would not be the same person per se'. So in a sense, who you are would cease to exist anyway.

Another argument is that when you die - if there is no spirit - it wouldn't matter to you anyway because you would cease to exist and when you cease to exist, you can't morn your death or loss.

A third argument is that when you die, your "spirit" gets disbursed into the collective and although you essentially still exist, who you were in your life no longer exists.

Of course there is the religious version of when you die your spirit either goes to some heaven or hell ... which doesn't sound like a lot of fun either way ... unless heaven is full of good things like cuppachino and animals.

I have to run so I will address the rest of your message when I get back.

Thanks for the conversation!

M.

[Marisa]

Hi Saffyre,

Here's part two:

But I believe that the 'higher values' that you have referred to don't come from flesh and neurons, it comes from the soul.

Does it matter where they come from?

And some of the 'coincidences' that I have seen over the past few weeks have completely affirmed my beliefs.

I don't think coincidences have anything to do with the origin of higher values ... or am I missing something?

I guess it all depends on the coincidence and the circumstances related to it and you.

I don't mind being wrong if at the end of the day these beliefs help me to see things differently, react differently and ultimately achieve all I desire. Either way, my time here will benefit.

What is more important to you - comfort or truth? I opted for truth at some point and felt very uncomfortable for a long time afterward because so much of my identity was tied into my spiritual beliefs.

Sidebar: "Truth" being related to that which can be scientifically proven to exist as opposed to a belief that something exists.

Not to mention, there was comfort in believing that there was a god or a higher, wiser self that had an ultimate plan for me or that everything that happened to me was for a reason. There was comfort in believing that my life had spiritual purpose.

It was also rather fun at times believing in magic and the occult. To belong to a "secret society" and study different texts, uncover "secrets" as you advance through the grades. Life was mysterious and at times "dangerous" (or so I thought) as I studied psychic self defense, banishing techniques etc. so I was equipped to battle the forces of evil. Interesting times.

Having walked both paths - I do understand and appreciate the allure of both "worlds".

I guess I warranted that response. The way that I see it, guardian angels are here to guide, not intervene in physical occurrences, whatever our experience might be.

If you are interested in the study of angels, there are some really interesting areas that explore the different hierarchies and angelic studies.

The Merkhaba (Jewish Mysticism not the New Age Merkabah which is total fiction or delusion). Anyway, the Merkhaba is about how to ascend the seven "palaces" of heaven. What angels stand guard and what words to say to them to gain access etc.

The Qabalah (Jewish & Hermetic Mysticism (Madonna's version doesn't count) is a great work to study as it explores the personalty of God and Man. It is believed by studying the personality of man through the 10 Sephiroth and 32 paths, one will be closer to understanding the personality of god. As above so below. Oh, there are angels assigned to each of the Sephiroth as well .. each has an archangel, angel and choir of angels.

There is the story of Enoch who supposedly ascended and became the angel Metatron.

There is Enochian magic which is all about angels and accessing the 30 Aether's in which they inhabit. There is an angelic language and a series of hoops to jump through in order to gain proper access. Complicated study that one is.

There is a good book written by Andrew Collins called, "From the Ashes of Angels" and it is all about the legend of the fallen angels.

Angel Magic by Geoffrey James is a good read also. It has to do with how to summon and communicate with angelic beings. This book gives you an overall look at the different angelic studies.

The truly enlightened (Dalia Lama, prophets, monks) do not see pain, death or suffering in the same way - they are able to accept what IS because they believe that this is a human experience as part of building our spiritual experience.

I read an interesting thing about the Dalia Lama the other day. The Dalia Lama is interested in Neuroscience and every year he attends a week long conference (private) where a group of neuroscientists and Buddhists get together and talk shop. I found this information in a book called, "Train your Mind, Change your Brain" by Sharon Begley. It's a book about neuroscience and Buddhism. I think you'd really enjoy this book.

Also potentially enhancing psychic awareness might lead to having a closer connection with your angel (which could be read as trusting your instinct, I guess).

Two different ways at looking at the same thing. Isn't perception interesting!


M.

[Saffyre]

Hi Marisa,

Firstly, it is such a pleasure to be having a conversation with someone who is so well read and who has tested so many different viewpoints and experiences. What an interesting life you have led!!

As I would consider myself to be at the start of my journey, my level of reading is not yet prolific. The funny thing is, for the first time in my life, I have found something that I feel is the truth, and for the time being (or for as long as it works for me) I don't feel the need to search for anything that will make me think otherwise. Perhaps my spiritual head is in the sand for the foreseeable future! What's the saying - Ignorance is Bliss!

I agree with you that physically and neurologically speaking, beliefs come from mood, experience, knowledge etc and are very difficult to change (unless you find a method of turning them on their head - whether that is EFT, NLP, or having a new experience which changes your perception).

How would you define spirit?

As a collective consciousness that comprises what we would refer to as 'God'. When you die, you retain your 'self' but not in a way that we could physically describe. (The religious version of the afterlife never did appeal to me either, but heaven for me would be lots of animals too, but a nice cup of tea )

Does it matter where they (higher values) come from?

Not really. What is, is.

I don't think coincidences have anything to do with the origin of higher values ... or am I missing something?
I guess it all depends on the coincidence and the circumstances related to it and you.

Mind Babble and digression on my part. What I meant to relay was that since I have started to believe in a collective consciousness (God, Universe, Whatever) odd things have happened that have affirmed them. It could be argued that what I am paying my attention to by being more mindful and aware is making these events more apparent to me, whereas previously I would have missed them. Possible, but it works for me.

One of the strangest occurrences happened last month. I had a medical procedure that I had to book. I rang them on the 14th of January, and they said they were waiting for some results, but would chase and send out an appointment. In my mind I was thinking 'my appointment will be next Tuesday (22nd) at 2:30pm' and I continued with that thought all week. No letter arrived, so on Monday the 21st I rang them again, and they said they would make the appointment and send a letter out by close of business that day. My immediate thought was that maybe I was wrong, the appointment wouldn't happen by the 22nd, but perhaps on the 24th instead. Feeling impatient, I rang up on the 22nd to find out when my appointment had been scheduled for. "Monday 11th February" she told me. Oh. I asked whether she had anything earlier, so she took another look at the system and said 'can you come in this afternoon? 3pm?' Not bad only being half an hour out. But whilst at the appointment I learned that someone with the same name as me had canceled that morning (which is not too difficult to have someone with the same first name). It turned out she had the same surname as me - and my surname, although not rare, isn't exactly common either...

At best, it's the Laws of Attraction at work, but even if you don't believe in any of that, it's still a little bit freaky. Well, it is to me

What is more important to you - comfort or truth? I opted for truth at some point and felt very uncomfortable for a long time afterward because so much of my identity was tied into my spiritual beliefs.

I find it interesting that you went in search for the truth (i.e. scientifically proven) when so much of your self was invested in spiritual beliefs. I'd be interested to know what triggered opting for 'the truth'.

My answer to the question, what is more important, comfort or truth, is that I believe I have found the truth, and it provides me with great comfort! It almost seems like I have done things the other way round to you, though not in as much depth. I started by being introduced to the Emotional Freedom Technique, and Louise Hay (You can heal your life), then to Transactional Analysis ('I'm OK, You're OK' and 'The Games People Play'). I understand how the Amygdala (sp?!) stores responses and roughly how the brain works (there's not a test on this, right? ). A very short time afterwards I was introduced to 'Conversations with God', found 'Ask and it is Given' (foreward by Dr Wayne Dyer), and then on to one of his CD sets.
So whilst I enjoyed the scientific knowledge and theory and the learning that this involved, I have found the spiritual side much more life changing.

"Train your mind, change your brain" sounds very curious indeed... will put that on my reading list!

Two different ways at looking at the same thing. Isn't perception interesting!

Infinitely!

[Marisa]

[quote=Saffyre;2245]Hi Marisa,

Firstly, it is such a pleasure to be having a conversation with someone who is so well read and who has tested so many different viewpoints and experiences. What an interesting life you have led!!

Aww gosh ... thank you for the kind words. Curiosity has led me down some unusual corridors for sure.

As I would consider myself to be at the start of my journey, my level of reading is not yet prolific. The funny thing is, for the first time in my life, I have found something that I feel is the truth, and for the time being (or for as long as it works for me) I don't feel the need to search for anything that will make me think otherwise.

A spiritual journey takes a life time. I think in the end, it's not a measure of how much you know, experience or do but whether you are happy and at peace with yourself. There were many times along my journey where I was at peace spiritually and so I remained in that position until it was time to move on -- when I no longer felt at peace with my beliefs. I'm at a peaceful place now (finally!!) and who knows how long this will last.

Perhaps my spiritual head is in the sand for the foreseeable future! What's the saying - Ignorance is Bliss!

Well you are hardly ignorant - you are just exploring an alternate path. I do believe it's important to follow your True Will. Some of what I studied (Thelema, Buddhism) has stuck with me as I see it more as a lifestyle philosophy. Stuff like respect all life, appreciate life, follow your true will, don't interfere in the will of others etc.. is all stuff I find quite useful. I still have all my magick books - can't part with them (sentimental reasons if anything). Also, sometimes I like to read through some of them as they do contain wisdom and knowledge. So much of magick is mind based. There are so many things in magick (such as altered states of consciousness) that can also be accomplished through more traditional methods (hypnosis, chanting, drumming etc.).

I agree with you that physically and neurologically speaking, beliefs come from mood, experience, knowledge etc and are very difficult to change (unless you find a method of turning them on their head - whether that is EFT, NLP, or having a new experience which changes your perception).

As a collective consciousness that comprises what we would refer to as 'God'. When you die, you retain your 'self' but not in a way that we could physically describe. (The religious version of the afterlife never did appeal to me either, but heaven for me would be lots of animals too, but a nice cup of tea )

Reincarnation -- I'm open to the possibility of reincarnation. I have read some convincing reports of reincarnation in India (mostly because they believe in reincarnation and so the stories are investigated more than they would be in the western world). Science has not accepted reincarnation as a fact yet probably because there is not enough solid evidence to support this.

The thing I like about science is that it is unbiased. A true scientist will have a theory and then work to disprove it, which is an interesting perspective. Adopting a scientific attitude may make me a skeptic but it also allows me to change my mind if I find convincing evidence that proves my belief or disbelief is no longer valid. I found that the problem with religion and many "spiritual" dogmas are rigid and resistant to change or alternate explanations. What the person believes is pretty much written in stone. I found that to be restricting after a while.

Mind Babble and digression on my part. What I meant to relay was that since I have started to believe in a collective consciousness (God, Universe, Whatever) odd things have happened that have affirmed them. It could be argued that what I am paying my attention to by being more mindful and aware is making these events more apparent to me, whereas previously I would have missed them. Possible, but it works for me.

I think if you have found something that works - use it. If you are achieving your goal and the method to getting there doesn't harm you or anyone else in the process ... what matters most is the outcome.

At best, it's the Laws of Attraction at work, but even if you don't believe in any of that, it's still a little bit freaky. Well, it is to me

Coincidences do happen. Now if you are able to set up an experiment regarding the laws of attraction and reproduce the results ... then you have something.

I find it interesting that you went in search for the truth (i.e. scientifically proven) when so much of your self was invested in spiritual beliefs. I'd be interested to know what triggered opting for 'the truth'.

It was a long process which was triggered by an interest in the biological causes of criminal (deviant) behavior. I had come across a story about a man who was a good family man, kind hearted, spiritual ... who, while at work, was in a accident which caused a steel rod to go through his head. He lived but his personality changed and he was no longer the same person.

It caused me to examine my beliefs about evil. Why do people do "evil" things? Some believe it's because of possession. Others believe that the person has been influenced by the devil. Science has found an alternate explanation - something is physically wrong with the brain. For example, in the case of a psychopath (who are capable of horrendous things) there is a physical disconnection in the brain between the area that is concerned with conscience, guild and remorse (morals) and the area that generates feelings. What this means is that the person may intellectually know the difference between right and wrong but it has no meaning so they don't feel bad when something bad happens, they don't feel guilty ... and these kinds of feelings are what develop our morals and govern our behavior. Anyway ... this all made more sense than a devil or spirit possessing the person.

Later, while I was involved with a "mystery school" one of the tasks I underwent had to do with some path work. It was a two year process in which I systematically examined all my beliefs about everything and this inevitably changed me. It was very difficult and I was pretty much confused for that two years (with moments of lucidity ha ha). During that period, I also took my NLP certifications - thankfully because I was able to help myself through the mire. Although it was a difficult experience, it wasn't a bad one and even though I was no longer spiritually inclined, my logic and reasoning was intact and I did eventually find a place of peace.

Life on the other side is pretty much the same ... a little more comfortable and much more free in thinking than I was before. I joined one of the "mystery schools" because I figured that there was something I was missing, that there was some secret knowledge that these secret societies had that gave a key to the mysteries. I did learn stuff but not in the way I expected. I learned about myself and learned how to develop inner strength and self reliability but I didn't materialize any spirits ... nor did I turn base metal into gold.

So whilst I enjoyed the scientific knowledge and theory and the learning that this involved, I have found the spiritual side much more life changing.

So what led you to pursue a spiritual path? What were your beliefs before that? Where do you go from here?

M.

[Saffyre]

Hi Marisa,

Oh so much interesting conversation!

So much of magick is mind based. There are so many things in magick (such as altered states of consciousness) that can also be accomplished through more traditional methods (hypnosis, chanting, drumming etc.).

I have always been fascinated with altered states of consciousness - the mind is a wonderful thing...

Science has not accepted reincarnation as a fact yet probably because there is not enough solid evidence to support this.

I am open to the idea that we are reincarnated, choose our experience (birthplace, parents etc) but in order to have the experience of life (and hence expand the experience of the collective consciousness) we forget our previous lives before we get here. I have never tried a past life regression and I always wondered whether I would divulge a completely unique life experience e.g. one that I could not have learned through history lessons or after watching Sweeney Todd!!!
So do you think that Psychics such as Colin Fry are all complete fakes? Or just unproven?

The thing I like about science is that it is unbiased. A true scientist will have a theory and then work to disprove it, which is an interesting perspective. ...I found that the problem with religion and many "spiritual" dogmas are rigid and resistant to change or alternate explanations. What the person believes is pretty much written in stone. I found that to be restricting after a while.

I like the fact that science is unbiased too, but that only means to me that there is so much left for scientists to prove, if that makes sense. And I believe that they will eventually find a way to prove things that they have previously disproved. As for religion and "spiritual" dogmas - I agree, I don't buy in to any of them.

Coincidences do happen. Now if you are able to set up an experiment regarding the laws of attraction and reproduce the results ... then you have something.

Hey, I already have something and I don't feel the need to prove or disprove it I say that if it's not broke, don't fix it...

I learned about myself and learned how to develop inner strength and self reliability but I didn't materialize any spirits ... nor did I turn base metal into gold.

Your path is very interesting - certainly 10/10 for effort and persistence (shame about the gold though). So do you believe that it is purely the brain and the way that it is wired which builds our personality? And how about the energy that flows through every living thing - do you see us as purely mechanical beings and nothing more?

So what led you to pursue a spiritual path? What were your beliefs before that? Where do you go from here?

It's hard to explain, but I always believed that there was something more. I started out as a Methodist and going to Sunday School until I was 11, when my Mum left my Dad. I was always an anxious child. Between the ages of 11 and 18 I lived with a very violent, alcoholic and abusive step-father and was bullied at school. I lived my life in fear and this led to a very low self-esteem. Now, I don't want to sound like a basket-case here, because I survived and I continued to live 'normally' on the surface. My sister was always in to self development and positive thinking, and introduced me to 'Your Best Year Yet' and 'Feel the Fear and do it Anyway'. I had several attempts at counseling to move on from the past. Then my sister introduced me to MindStore, which is a self-hypnosis method based on Desire, Expectation, Belief; Thoughts Are Things etc and all of the people I met who had been practicing these techniques were full of stories about the things that they had manifested. So I practiced that for a short while, saw a few coincidences, then drifted away from the programming side of it on a regular basis.
In the meantime, I stopped smoking using hypnotherapy. It was meant to be one session, but it left me with a heap of anxiety . For my second session I was introduced to the Emotional Freedom Technique (which helped me to overcome this and which I still find useful).

A couple of years later I felt that I was still searching for peace (and higher self-esteem), and found a therapist living near to me who practiced NLP and EFT. After working through some issues (and finding relief, at long last) he introduced me to 'Conversations with God' and explained that he had been introduced to the book after he had been diagnosed with terminal leukemia (he is still very much alive and well). What I read in this book fitted in so well with what I had learned in MindStore - it is as though everything I had learned was linked, and was what I was meant to discover. I have noticed far more of what you could call 'coincidence' since I have read the book than at any previous time in my life, but I guess more than that, it has introduced me to a way of thinking that makes me completely comfortable with myself, and a way of accepting what is. Which is nice

As for where do I go from here.. good question. I am really interested in discovering my psychic abilities, opening chakras, would love to have an(other) out-of-the-body experience and maybe one day even open up my crown chakra... All in good time. If ever I lose faith, maybe I will investigate other avenues. Never say never...

A pleasure, as always
Saffyre