explanation of the standard sessions

**enigma-2** · 10-05-2006, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by MindMan

Hi, just to honor who is to be honored - I did not create that graphical explanation of the sessions. It is some guy at the http://proteus.hkjzone.com/forums/ Maybe he will show his face here sooner or later. I don't remember anything to identify the guy.
K.R MindMan

Actually those descriptions were taken from the original 23 Sirius machine sessions which were designed by German scientist Dr. Gerhard Bittner
(see: http://www.elixa.com/mental/OrionPrograms.htm for example).

For the Proteus, they used the original Sirius sessions and added 27 more Mindlab sessions (of dubious worth) to create the 50 sessions.

Dennis

**Robert Austin** · 10-10-2006, 09:29 AM

Correct, we have used both Orion sessions and MindLab sessions, with some modifications to reflect the more advanced capabilities of the newer hardware.

Certain MindLab sessions spend most of their time within a certain stimulation band; for example, "relaxation" are in the 9-12 Hz band, "learning" in the 5-8 Hz band, "sleep" below that; the frequencies ramp continuously within the band in order to induce the desired effect in a broad range of users (since not everyone will respond to a specific frequency in the same way).

In general, session design must be "fuzzy", since there is no EEG feedback to determine the "best" frequency for a given user.

I'm not sure why you would suggest that they are "of dubious worth"; if you have specific reason(s) for making such a comment, please let us know!

**MindMan** · 10-24-2006, 04:27 AM

Hi Robert,

Quoting you:

"In general, session design must be "fuzzy", since there is no EEG feedback to determine the "best" frequency for a given user"

I perfectly well understand what your point is. Everybody has got his or her favorite regions, where the brain reacts most strongly on a mind machine.

There is however another point. In order to entrain one needs to be stimulated for some time at any given frequency. How do you make sure that enough stimulation is received at any time with any brain?

And are there any medical authorities that give credit to this type of shot gun tactics?

There is plenty of credit on entrainment at a fixed frequency.

Apart from being a bright idea of yours - is anybody else supporting this?

I.e. any papers on this being efficient at achieving entrainment?

K.R.

MindMan

**Robert Austin** · 10-27-2006, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by MindMan

Hi Robert,

Quoting you:

"In general, session design must be "fuzzy", since there is no EEG feedback to determine the "best" frequency for a given user"

I perfectly well understand what your point is. Everybody has got his or her favorite regions, where the brain reacts most strongly on a mind machine.

There is however another point. In order to entrain one needs to be stimulated for some time at any given frequency. How do you make sure that enough stimulation is received at any time with any brain?

And are there any medical authorities that give credit to this type of shot gun tactics?

There is plenty of credit on entrainment at a fixed frequency.

Apart from being a bright idea of yours - is anybody else supporting this?

I.e. any papers on this being efficient at achieving entrainment?

K.R.

MindMan

Hello, Mindman!

Yes, there are are studies which support the use of frequency "sweeps" vs. fixed frequencies; in fact this approach was included in a patent held by Dr. Harold Russell, Dan Vaughn and myself. One common misconception which has propagated in the LS field is that there are very precise frequencies which produce specific esoteric or medical effects. Though there is some basis for this (i.e., Tansey uses and touts 14 Hz neurofeedback for ADHD, though others more generally use the SMR range of which 14 Hz is a component), it is very unlikely that a fractional Hz will produce the same effect on everyone. That's why we made the Proteus programmable--the included sessions are intended as much as examples as anything else.

Back to frequency sweeps within a band, for example 9-12 Hz: you would be correct if you are suggesting that this is less effective than stimulation at a given user's "ideal" frequency within a band (for example, 10 Hz might be the "best" one for you). However, stimulating at a fixed frequency can lead to habituation: a lessening response to that frequency over time. So, varying the frequency is in part intended to sidestep stimulus induced habituation. Some studies have show that stimulating near an individual's ideal frequency can enhance amplitude at that frequency as well. I would post more details about these studies, except the FDA would consider this medical "labeling" and we do want to comply with their regulations. A good place to reseach LS studies is Pubmed (freely available online) and psychlit (fee based but usually available from State University libraries; I do my main research at the University of Washington).

Hope this clarifies things a bit more!

Robert

**enigma-2** · 11-02-2006, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Austin

I'm not sure why you would suggest that they are "of dubious worth"; if you have specific reason(s) for making such a comment, please let us know!

Sorry Robert, I should have worded that better.

I'll try to explain the reasoning I was using when I wrote that. For me, I tend to see the Mindlab sessions as being the same, just repeating over and over at longer intervols to add "bulk". (It's just how I view them).

I've used them, but have come back over and over to the Orion sessions. (To me) they simply don't have the effects of the Orion sessions.

Thanks for being a part of this forum and offering such clear adivce and instruction. I learn a lot from reading your responses.

Dennis

**massimo** · 10-01-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by MindMan

Hi,

you will find a graphical description of the standard-sessions (i.e. the frequencies versus time):

K.R.

MindMan

to anyone,

I wonder if you have a doc with the Proycon standard session description like the one for the proteus.

Where I can find a description of the available programs.
Or are the programs the same for both consoles?

Many thanx in advance for your time.

Massimo

**Marisa** · 10-01-2008, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by massimo

to anyone,

I wonder if you have a doc with the Proycon standard session description like the one for the proteus.

Where I can find a description of the available programs.
Or are the programs the same for both consoles?

Many thanx in advance for your time.

Massimo

We don't have a graphical one like the Proteus. One of our forum members did up the graphical version. I've attached what we do have. Hopefully this will help.

M.

**massimo** · 10-01-2008, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Marisa

We don't have a graphical one like the Proteus. One of our forum members did up the graphical version. I've attached what we do have. Hopefully this will help.

M.

Thank you Marisa,

I really was after, not so much a graphical version, as a layman explination of what each session is reccomended for. Any chance of tracing who did the ones for the Proteus? Or do we know if the sessions are the same in both consoles: The Proteus or the Proycon?

Many thanx again for your kind attention

Massimo

**enigma-2** · 10-03-2008, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by massimo

Any chance of tracing who did the ones for the Proteus? Or do we know if the sessions are the same in both consoles: The Proteus or the Proycon?

The original 23 Sirius machine sessions which were designed by German scientist Dr. Gerhard Bittner. Don't know if their the same as the Poteus, some are simular, some are different.

Do you own the Proycon? If so, what do you think of it (and if you know, how does it compare to the Proteus)?

My Proteus has gone through many a set of batteries over the years. Amazing results using several of the programs.

**Marisa** · 10-03-2008, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by massimo

Thank you Marisa,

I really was after, not so much a graphical version, as a layman explanation of what each session is recommended for. Any chance of tracing who did the ones for the Proteus? Or do we know if the sessions are the same in both consoles: The Proteus or the Procyon?

Many thanx again for your kind attention

Massimo

Hi Massimo,

I'm not sure which Proteus chart you are talking about. I have two that I refer to. One is a list of the frequencies in each program and the other gives me the range of targeted frequencies in each session. I've attached the two charts that I'm talking about so you have a reference. If you are talking about a different chart than what I've attached, can you send me a copy?

If you get to know what brain state each of the groups of frequencies (Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta) are associated with, then you can look at any of these charts and decide upon which program is best for your intended purposes.

The sessions are similar in both machines as far as the end result (learning, relaxation etc.). The targeted frequencies will be within similar ranges as well. The segments in each session though are different, which doesn't really matter as there are many ways to get to the same goal.

The sessions basically will do what the "description" in the manual says, for example, P 17 - Quick Alertness - will wake you up somewhat, where as Catnap (p43) will put you to sleep.

I'll put it on my "to do" list and see what I can do about coming up with some more detailed descriptions for both the Proteus and Procyon sessions.

Thanks for letting me know what you would like to see. In the meantime, please feel free to ask what program is best for what outcome. I'm more than happy to answer any questions (and I'm quite sure that you are not the only person who has these questions).

M.