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Thread: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

  1. #1

    Unhappy Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    Hello there
    I have had my Proteus for years but have not used it much of late as I confess I found the instructions for downloading new programs confusing.
    I am still confused about the different programs and what brainwave pattern they mostly use. It would be hlpful to have that info.
    However, my question today is this
    I am using mp3s that use brain entrainment into specified levels for specific purposes say deep levels of meditation etc.
    I have been listeneing to them alone but today was motivated to get out and dust down my trusty Proteus. What I am confused about is whether there is a conflict between the Proteus and the mp3?
    For instance...the Proteus has pre recorded programs that gradually take you from one brainwave pattern to another. If I use my mp3 at the same time ie plugged in....will there not be a confusuion to the brain?


    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    Hello and welcome!

    Have a look at the "stickies" just above this thread. There are a couple that have charts of the sessions and frequencies and other useful information.

    -Andy.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    wow Thanks Andy! I have downloaded the pdf info about the different frequencies and I cannot tell you what a help it is!!! I wish I had known that years ago. I wonder why it is not included in the instruction booklet as I am sure there are a few people like myself who eventually gave up from not knowing one program really from another in the way of the subtle differences.

    I can now gauge that if a prog last 60 mins say at delta then its good to use with mp3s that take you to that level with nature sounds etc but what I need to know is what if I am using an mp3 that takes me to Epsilom and the delta frequency is the lowest that the Proteus goes to? What happens then? In other words...what system overrides the other?

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    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    I can now gauge that if a prog last 60 mins say at delta then its good to use with mp3s that take you to that level with nature sounds etc but what I need to know is what if I am using an mp3 that takes me to Epsilom and the delta frequency is the lowest that the Proteus goes to? What happens then? In other words...what system overrides the other?
    Sorry, I've never heard of Epsilon frequencies and so I can't help you there. I'm not sure that such a thing exists or is relevant to AVS. I took another look through my information and nothing beyond Gamma (25 to 75 Hz) is mentioned.

    Delta (0.5 - 3Hz) isn't the lowest that the Proteus goes - it's (0.5 Hz) is the lowest that your brain goes. Anything lower than 0.5 is coma and brain death.

    Can the frequencies produced by music cause a conflict with the Proteus program? I would have to say yes, but it depends on what music is put together with what program. If the music is relaxing and the program is Alpha/Theta then the effect may be slightly minimized but shouldn't change the results.

    If you play fast music to a delta program, for example, you probably won't get as good results. It's likely that your brain would pay more attention to the fast music and you would not get into a deep sleep.

    So, when two sets of frequencies are in conflict, the brain will usually choose a frequency somewhere in between the two or it will follow the stronger stimulus and ignore the other.

    Hope this helps.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonchild View Post
    Hello there
    What I am confused about is whether there is a conflict between the Proteus and the mp3?
    For instance...the Proteus has pre recorded programs that gradually take you from one brainwave pattern to another. If I use my mp3 at the same time ie plugged in....will there not be a confusuion to the brain?
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Most of the MP3 hypnosis-type programs aim to be semi-hypnotic so any of the Mindlab Learn programs should work out fine. Programs that target Theta/Delta won't work well because you'll probably fall asleep and go too deep for the MP3 to have any influence. High Beta programs will likely conflict with the MP3 and make you more restless and unable to sit through the MP3.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    Many thanks for your reply Marisa
    However, I am a bit surprised that you have never heard of the Epsilom wave.
    http://www.neuroacoustic.com/epsilon.html
    What about Lambda too?
    http://www.bethcoleman.net/gamma.html

    The music I would be intoducing would carry binaural beats and I do find I am able to maintain consciousness as oppposed to falling asleep as I sit up when listening and find that the lights keep me awake.
    I have experienced many different levels of consciousness all my life spontaneously which had led me into different realms of being and also stimulated a real desire in me to learn more. Lucid dreaming and out of body etc.
    That is why I am so interested in the extreme wave levels.

    I understand it would be daft to listen to fast music while chosing slow brainwaves but now a bit confused about the limitations of my Proteus.
    I guess what I am trying to find out is if I use a product that attempts to take me to those extreme brain states (which I must visit naturally on occaision) will it be enhanced or inhibited by the use of my Proteus at the same time?
    Last edited by Moonchild; 02-20-2011 at 10:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    Hi Moonchild,

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonchild View Post
    Many thanks for your reply Marisa
    However, I am a bit surprised that you have never heard of the Epsilon wave.
    http://www.neuroacoustic.com/epsilon.html
    I'm surprised at your surprise. The author, (Thompson) of the above website did say that he was the one who decided to name frequencies below delta, Epsilon. They key being - he decided to call them that. He may be the only one in the scientific community who calls them that.

    The second thing that he wrote that troubles me is that he conducted his own research using modified EEG equipment. Okay, even if we let that go, the next question concerns how he conducted his research and the details of that research. I'm not saying his research is invalid, there is simply not enough information provided to make any assessment.

    He claims that the "epsilon" frequencies are associated with "ecstatic states of consciousness, higher states of meditation, spiritual insight and suspended animation...". I've seen similar descriptions attributed to theta frequencies so my question is - if you can achieve these states in theta, what's the purpose in trying to achieve them in below delta?

    I also wonder, how is it possible to have dominant brain waves of below delta and remain conscious, let alone report what you feel or experience? If you are awake or alert enough to analyze what you feel - then you are not in a delta state. Of course, you may feel ecstatic when you wake up because you had a really good sleep. "Feeling of suspended animation", well that fits with sleep. "Spiritual Insight" - we need to know more about what exactly that means, never mind where it occurs.


    What about Lambda too?
    http://www.bethcoleman.net/gamma.html
    Thompson has renamed high gamma, lambda - so again, it's his own terminology.

    There is more information and studies on gamma (> 25 Hz). I saw a bunch of research papers on brain wave activity of monks while in deep meditation - oddly enough, it was a gamma state (not subdelta).

    We are exposed to gamma frequencies all the time (fluorescent light bulbs, television screens, computer screens, sunlight etc.). Do these things affect our brain waves enough to make a difference? Sometimes they give us headaches. Do they make us smarter, more alert - no. If only it was that easy eh.


    Finally, when looking at AVS programs - low delta could be achieved via binaural beats (100 Hz in one ear and 101 Hz in the other ear) - the tone will be uninteresting and if you mix music in with it - your brain will probably ignore it and go with the music. If you program your lights above 25 Hz - you won't perceive the flicker and your brain will quickly adjust and you will lose effect. The ideal program, if you wanted to incorporate these frequencies, would be one that starts off in Alpha and ramps down to Delta, with periods of 0.5 Hz - or if you were going to do the binaural beat - you could inject some gamma bursts in the middle of your delta. Keep it really short though so it doesn't knock you out of your state completely. You could finish the program off with ramping up to gamma (50 Hz) on your Proteus.

    I don't know what the result would be. If anything, you may feel quite refreshed afterward. Perhaps during the slow wave period you would experience an altered state of consciousness. If you get a chance to pick up the Audiostrobe CD Requiem, that may give you some ideas of how to design a program that will do what you want and be interesting. I find Requiem to be quite adept at shifting conscious states. It's pretty trippy.

    The music I would be introducing would carry binaural beats and I do find I am able to maintain consciousness as opposed to falling asleep as I sit up when listening and find that the lights keep me awake.
    I have experienced many different levels of consciousness all my life spontaneously which had led me into different realms of being and also stimulated a real desire in me to learn more. Lucid dreaming and out of body etc.
    That is why I am so interested in the extreme wave levels.
    If you are staying awake, you are likely still in a theta state (low theta, high delta). You don't need extreme wave levels to achieve the things you mention as Theta is well documented for inspiring those states.


    I understand it would be daft to listen to fast music while choosing slow brain waves but now a bit confused about the limitations of my Proteus.
    I guess what I am trying to find out is if I use a product that attempts to take me to those extreme brain states (which I must visit naturally on occasion) will it be enhanced or inhibited by the use of my Proteus at the same time?
    I'm almost offended by the term "limitations of the Proteus" because it is not the thing that is limiting you.

    I ponder about your choice of word "extreme" and wonder why you want to go to such extremes in order to achieve something attainable through more standard methods? I can think of many ways to achieve an extreme state of mind - none of them with healthy outcomes. People often seek help to get them out of extreme states - be careful with what you seek.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    I can feel your irritabilty from here Marisa and its a bit off putting to be frank The reason I asked was obviously because I wanted to know more and thought this was a forum to do just that. I do not pretend to know it all or I would not be asking but I do take umbridge at the tone of your reply.

    There are SO many different sites selling different mp3's and cds that speak of the levels of brainwaves that I have mentioned that I wanted to know more not get a lecture.

    Like someone said on another thread I wanted to use my Proteus to explore my mind as much as possible due to my lifetime of experiencing spontaneous changes in brainwave activity.
    I understand you feel very passionate about the Proteus but please do not speak to me as though I am a naughty child.

    I thought this was where Proteus owners could get help If I had not read so widely about other levels of brainwaves and what they are responsible for I would not have been seeking clarification.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    Quote Originally Posted by Marisa View Post
    Hi Moonchild,


    I ponder about your choice of word "extreme" and wonder why you want to go to such extremes in order to achieve something attainable through more standard methods? I can think of many ways to achieve an extreme state of mind - none of them with healthy outcomes. People often seek help to get them out of extreme states - be careful with what you seek.

    M.
    As a trained nurse and alternative practitioner I find this comment particulary
    offensive. I shall not be bothering you again.

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    Default Re: Potential confusing stimulation with mp3 brain entrainment

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonchild View Post
    As a trained nurse and alternative practitioner I find this comment particulary
    offensive. I shall not be bothering you again.
    I'm sorry, does "extreme" mean something different to you?

    Being an nurse and practitioner, I would think that you would understand my concern at the following statement ("...attempts to take me to those extreme states which I must visit...").


    BTW, your post was not a bother and your questions brought up a good topic. One that I thought we could have a good discussion about. I was pointing what I questioned about Thompson's work. It is not a personal attack against you or your knowledge. Take another look at what I wrote. Sheesh simma down. More theta for you.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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