Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions

[Kamo]

Hi,

I have spent only about an hour or two doing procyon sessions. I am an experienced meditator interested in checking this thing out.

I have used binaural beats audio before and feel like it probably did effect me. I think the procyon does effect me a little too. Not sure how but it must just a little.

But it's certainly not like, wow, this is really doing cool things. Not enough that I can be sure anything is happening at all. I am photosensitive and also believe that flashing too bright light on the retina will eventually and slowly lead to macular degeneration and blindness in old age, which my father has. So I dont crank the lights up super high. Even at the level I have them, the area around my eyes feels strained physically, and I guess I could say the main effect I feel from the procyon in general is the induction of a mild state of irritation and tension.

I wonder if anyone can give me any advice. What programs are good, most effective, etc.?

Thanks,

Kamo

[CraigT]

Hi,

I have spent only about an hour or two doing procyon sessions. I am an experienced meditator interested in checking this thing out.

I have used binaural beats audio before and feel like it probably did effect me. I think the procyon does effect me a little too. Not sure how but it must just a little.

But it's certainly not like, wow, this is really doing cool things. Not enough that I can be sure anything is happening at all. I am photosensitive and also believe that flashing too bright light on the retina will eventually and slowly lead to macular degeneration and blindness in old age, which my father has. So I dont crank the lights up super high. Even at the level I have them, the area around my eyes feels strained physically, and I guess I could say the main effect I feel from the procyon in general is the induction of a mild state of irritation and tension.

I wonder if anyone can give me any advice. What programs are good, most effective, etc.?

Thanks,

Kamo

Hi Kamo,

Just relax and take it easy. Although you're an experienced meditator, this is quite different, and you'll need to find new ways to approach the sessions.

"Most effective" depends on what you're wanting to achieve.

Probably the most important thing to keep in mind is that AVS is a support for natural mental processes - unlike pharmaceuticals, it is subtle and easy overpowered by other thoughts or actions.

I have considered the eye-safety aspect, and I'm satisfied that the Procyon is completely safe with eyes closed, and unlikey to cause harm even with eyes open. Blue light has been associated with macular degeneration, but the output of the LEDs is relatively low, even though it can seem bright.

I use the technique "hearing without listening, seeing without looking" for best results. I let my eyes relax and focus at infinity - I don't "try" to look at the patterns, I just let them be.

Hope this helps a bit. Let us know what you're hoping for and maybe we can can up with a few more specific suggestions.

Cheers,
Craig

[Marisa]

Hi Kamo,

Hi,

I have spent only about an hour or two doing procyon sessions. I am an experienced meditator interested in checking this thing out.

I have used binaural beats audio before and feel like it probably did effect me. I think the procyon does effect me a little too. Not sure how but it must just a little.

But it's certainly not like, wow, this is really doing cool things. Not enough that I can be sure anything is happening at all.

Essentially what an AVS machine endeavors to do is to coax your brainwaves into a desired state. Sometimes our brain waves may get to that state but the effect is brief, sometimes it lasts longer.

Some effects are more subtle and take place over a longer period of time. For myself, when I was working to improve my concentration, I didn't feel any different after the session. I don't know if it was a few days later or a week later but at one point I realized that the TV was on in the background while I was reading and that I had no idea what show was on. This meant that I was able to concentrate on what I was reading and not be distracted by the TV (which in the past I was).

The dramatic "oh wow" effect of AVS may have more to do with a person enjoying the visual effects. Some people, such as myself, really get into watching the lights and patterns and experience moments of euphoria while doing this. To others, perhaps it's not all that thrilling. It's an individual thing. The good news is, you don't have to be "wowed" to get something out of the session.

I am photosensitive and also believe that flashing too bright light on the retina will eventually and slowly lead to macular degeneration and blindness in old age, which my father has. So I dont crank the lights up super high. Even at the level I have them, the area around my eyes feels strained physically, and I guess I could say the main effect I feel from the procyon in general is the induction of a mild state of irritation and tension.

I would like to assure you that the LEDS in a Procyon are not bright enough to cause any eye problems. Your eyelids are closed during the session which also should prevent you from eye strain.

You certainly want to come away from the session feeling better than when you started.

The irritation and tension could be due to the photo-sensitivity. It could be due to using a program that is more stimulating than relaxing. It could be due to something else .... like frustration from unmet expectations.

Maybe you want to try some shorter sessions until you get use to the machine?

I wonder if anyone can give me any advice. What programs are good, most effective, etc.?

What is your goal? Answering that question will help me figure out which programs to suggest for you.

M.

[Kamo]

I am not sure it is possible to assure anyone of the dangers of long term use in regard to macular degeneration. How can you know? How many long term users have been studied over decades? In the short term, it might be possible to compare light exposure to typical daily activities. Is there any study that can estimate the amount of light delivered through the eyelids and onto the retina? That would be the only way to assure anyone that it is "a small amount of light"

What I am going for is, first of all, any sense that there is an effect from the device at all. Secondly, any kind of pleasant or calming mind state or interesting mental arousal. The fact that I do feel some energetic tension (that is not caused by frustrated expectations) is proof I suppose that the device does do something.

So I guess what I would want to know is if anyone has had the same experience as me, or perhaps someone knows some programs that are easier to work with than others, or more likely to lend calmness or pleasant experiences in the mind.

Thanks!

Kamo

[Andy]

Hello Kamo;

I am not sure it is possible to assure anyone of the dangers of long term use in regard to macular degeneration. How can you know? How many long term users have been studied over decades? In the short term, it might be possible to compare light exposure to typical daily activities. Is there any study that can estimate the amount of light delivered through the eyelids and onto the retina? That would be the only way to assure anyone that it is "a small amount of light"

We receive light at all times in a lighted room or from the sun. So pretty much as long as one is awake, one's eyes are receiving light. The AVS machines produce light as well, only that it's flashing. I really don't see how this could ever harm someone, ESPECIALLY when done in moderation and at a comfortable level.

What I am going for is, first of all, any sense that there is an effect from the device at all. Secondly, any kind of pleasant or calming mind state or interesting mental arousal. The fact that I do feel some energetic tension (that is not caused by frustrated expectations) is proof I suppose that the device does do something.

Please take a moment to re-read the excellent advice given by Craig and Marisa. Your experience is unlike anyone else we have ever heard from, so it seems like you're perhaps not giving it a chance. Relax, read the above suggestions again, try some of the calming programs and see if it helps you feel better or differently. Take some time to get used to how it works, get the settings to a comfortable level and RELAX. I'm not as experienced as Marisa and Craig on these devices, but it only makes sense that if you don't open up and let it do it's thing, it just won't work. I can't be hypnotized because I won't allow it to happen. I think that these devices work the same way. You need to allow it to do it's magic.

So I guess what I would want to know is if anyone has had the same experience as me, or perhaps someone knows some programs that are easier to work with than others, or more likely to lend calmness or pleasant experiences in the mind.

Thanks!

Kamo

Please don't be in too much of a rush. There's some great reading on this forum - many have suggested sessions that work well for them, but each person has their own favourites.

A good starting post is here: http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...=4819#post4819

Also, familiarize yourself with the technology. Have a read through some of the great articles and look at the custom-made sessions here: http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...splay.php?f=13

Knowledge is power. Please give the technology a chance, and I'm sure in no time you'll find what works well for you.

-Andy.

[Kamo]

Thanks. I will look into those threads, perhaps they have the specific advice I was asking about. Maybe people ask these things all the time (for instance, about suggested programs to try first), so one gets tired of giving the same answers all the time. I know how it is on message boards and all.

That being said, last night I turned the volume down and bit the bullet and cranked the light up (guessing maybe half way), and then "whoh." I wont say "wow!" but only because I have seen some amazing things in meditation and this is pale in comparison, but if I had never meditated before I would definitely say "wow!" I think I was in program 21, which annoyed me before, and the light show was really intense and trippy, when red lights came on I was flooded in a wash of color that blotted almost everything out. Lots of other things. Although I was not originally interested in trippy effects now that I see them they are interesting to me, and going with them did produce changes in mind state such as I was hoping to see from the device. These changes were more palpable than from binaural beats alone, to be sure. They were less intense and-- it is hard to describe-- less thorough in my being than an hour of successful meditation, but hey an hour of successful meditation is not nearly as easy as pressing a button, so what do you expect.

I also did an hour "night journey" initially skeptical that one could feel sleepy with lights blasting in your eyes and flying saucers in your ears. However, I did drift in and out of sleep and dream during the program, again proving that it works.

The similarity to meditative visions is uncanny. Meditative images are somehow deeper and involve your whole being on a more thorough level, but they look kind of like the light show when it gets trippy. Washes of color, washes of particles, this sort of layer of visual film, it looks just like that. Not the same, but its like the device produces a replica of them the way a drawing is similar to but not the same as the real thing. I find this absolutely fascinating and well worth exploring more. For instance: can the two kinds of things be brought closer into line?

I think my initial non-success was due to a. not having the light up high enough, and b. being accustomed to meditation and actively shaping my experience rather than passively accepting the influence from the device. Its not, I assure you, anything to due with relaxation.

I will continue to experiment a while, and then probably I will attach the glasses to blue light blocking glasses, because my father is nearly blind and that is not to be taken lightly or a danger to be dismissed by casual speculation. I think it will detract from the color considerably and the color and trippiness does, at my early stage of use here, seem to be crucial to the effects.

Unfortunately "I don't really see" how it could cause damage to the eyes is not any REAL assurance that it does not. Just because you dont think that it does, does not mean it doesnt. For instance, sunlight causes damage to the eyes. You might not see how it does, but it does. LED lights, which can be much richer in blue light than sunlight, when shined right in front of the eyes, what is the effect of that over the long term? The eyelid, I am guessing, works at least partially as a blue light blocker, because there is some orange in the way we perceive light with eyes closed. But how much it helps is impossible for me to guess.

Anyway, I definitely take it back when I said, what's this all about...

KAmo

[CraigT]

Hi Kamo,

Great to hear you're finding YOUR way with AVS! Given time you'll be able to merge your meditation experience with the AVS sessions and go to completely new places innaccessible by either on their own.

My favourite sessions are creative visualisation - they provide an amazing way to delve into the corners of your recollections and build new ideas.

I've been using AVS intensively for a couple of years now (and I really mean intensively!) During that time I have had two complete eye test and discussed the technology with my optometrist. There is no indication of degradation of my optical structures, and he has expressed no concern about the lights. I suspect you'll find you're exposed to a lot more harmful light looking at a TV or computer monitor. One of the joys of LED light is that it is monochromatic - a blue LED emits single wavelength blue visible light without the considerable ultraviolet that goes with most blue/white light. Some LEDs do emit some near UV light as they use a near UV LED to excite a fluorescent coating to provide that actual visible light - these are apparently quite safe too. The LEDs in MindPlace glasses are standard (non-fluoro) LEDs.

Happy exploring!

Cheers,
Craig

[Marisa]

Hi Kamo,

Thanks. I will look into those threads, perhaps they have the specific advice I was asking about. Maybe people ask these things all the time (for instance, about suggested programs to try first), so one gets tired of giving the same answers all the time. I know how it is on message boards and all.

One of my favorites is #17 - Regeneration. I like this program when I am tired and need to, well, regenerate.

I wrote an Alpha program, which I also use quite frequently and I use this to stimulate my mind, get it more active. I tend to have too much Theta dominant and so I benefit from Alpha/SMR programs (at least during the day time). The Alpha program can be downloaded from the Sessions area of the forum (if you are interested).

That being said, last night I turned the volume down and bit the bullet and cranked the light up (guessing maybe half way), and then "whoh." I wont say "wow!" but only because I have seen some amazing things in meditation and this is pale in comparison, but if I had never meditated before I would definitely say "wow!" I think I was in program 21, which annoyed me before, and the light show was really intense and trippy, when red lights came on I was flooded in a wash of color that blotted almost everything out. Lots of other things. Although I was not originally interested in trippy effects now that I see them they are interesting to me, and going with them did produce changes in mind state such as I was hoping to see from the device. These changes were more palpable than from binaural beats alone, to be sure. They were less intense and-- it is hard to describe-- less thorough in my being than an hour of successful meditation, but hey an hour of successful meditation is not nearly as easy as pressing a button, so what do you expect.

Okay, if you want trippy - find your favorite music and plug your head phones into that and then select P 46 - 49.

I also did an hour "night journey" initially skeptical that one could feel sleepy with lights blasting in your eyes and flying saucers in your ears. However, I did drift in and out of sleep and dream during the program, again proving that it works.

I have yet to remain awake during one of those programs. Some nights it takes longer to fall asleep than others but it always happens. Now for the light frames and headphones to take themselves off my head ...

I will continue to experiment a while, and then probably I will attach the glasses to blue light blocking glasses, because my father is nearly blind and that is not to be taken lightly or a danger to be dismissed by casual speculation. I think it will detract from the color considerably and the color and trippiness does, at my early stage of use here, seem to be crucial to the effects.

You can go into the editor and turn off the blue leds in your programs.

I can appreciate your wanting to be cautious, especially after seeing your father go through something like MG.

Unfortunately "I don't really see" how it could cause damage to the eyes is not any REAL assurance that it does not. Just because you dont think that it does, does not mean it doesnt. For instance, sunlight causes damage to the eyes. You might not see how it does, but it does. LED lights, which can be much richer in blue light than sunlight, when shined right in front of the eyes, what is the effect of that over the long term? The eyelid, I am guessing, works at least partially as a blue light blocker, because there is some orange in the way we perceive light with eyes closed. But how much it helps is impossible for me to guess.

From what I read, the problem was with bright blue light used in some forms of light therapy and it was used during the night when melatonin levels were high and the eyes' natural defenses were low. Also these lights were used with open, not closed eyes.

Still, if you are concerned about the blue lights on our light-frames, the nice thing about the Procyon is that you can turn them off.

These machines have been around for 20+ years and there hasn't been any reported cases of any of them (regardless of brand) causing eye problems. Mind you, the use of LEDS in AVS machines does not go back 20 years.

I think that you bring up a relevant point that people who have photosensitivity or a predisposition to eye problems may have to be more careful of light intensity and it wouldn't hurt for them to check with their eye doctor before using an AVS machine.

M.

[DinsdaleT]

If you're after reccomendations. Session 2 consistently makes me feel something in the middle of my forehead, and it's not too long.

Session 14 (Mind Sauna) I'd overlooked, I've had this device for a month or so and can't remember trying it. I tried recently and was impressed with the visuals. I felt engaged with the session in a way I hadn't previously.

All the Night Voyage sessions make me sleepy, I might be awake at the end of the session but only to take off the headphoes and glasses and go to sleep.

The visualisation (40-45) are good if you want to be left to your own thoughts.

Anyway I'd be interested in your thoughts on session 2 and 14.

[Kamo]

I checked out those sessions 2 and 14. I didn't particularly notice anything that stood out in relation to other sessions. But, just one try doesn't say much.

I didn't notice any particular usefulness of 14 for deep breathing or whatever it says. I wonder if the text in the charts about the various programs are just wild guesses. Perhaps based on some study read here or there about a particular frequency, or whatever. I am interested in continuing to test program 14 on this count. However, I think I like a more straightforward approach like the proteus seemed to have about entraining particular wavelengths. I will have to go into the procyon programming to get a more straightforward approach.

On the other hand, there may be uncertain advantages to the various highly variable programs shifting frequencies, colors, tones. There may be no small benefit to variety and engagement that the showiness of these programs provide (or not) They may be fairly random guesses by the makers, but some might be lucky guesses. Also, different users are different so a lucky match might happen.

But for more stable experimentation, I will need to make my own programs that hold frequency color and tone stable.

Currently, I am using the night voyage sessions in the daytime, in seated crosslegged position in the day. They do not make me sleepy but do seem to contribute a calming effect which is useful in meditation. I am used to staying awake in the midst of most kinds of experience so this might explain why sleepiness is not an issue using these sessions in an awake mode.

I also have used them to transition to sleep at night and found them effective for that too. Like you, I dont flat out sleep during the sessions however.

best wishes,

Kamo