Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

First of all, I've only been using my new Sirius unit (with the white-light frames) for ~ a week now. However, I am a long time Mindplace user and also own a Procyon (+4 months), a Proteus (+ 6 years) and a ThoughtStream (+5 years).

Originally I was going to just upgrade my old optional Proteus Tru-white glasses (ones with the big, pointy LED's) to the new ones with more comfortable frames, but for only ~$50 more I thought it would be fun to try out the Sirius unit (which included these glasses anyway).

Overall, I really love this little unit. It's so simple to use and works very well, esp. as an a Audiostrobe unit. I find that the AS CD's have much better light patterns with this unit compared to my others.

In closed-eye mode I don't personally see a lot of colours with any of my units but I do see, and like, the patterns best with the Sirius unit.

The only problem I've had is with the Manual mode (U2 mode). In this mode you just pick a pitch (before you start your session) and frequency (anytime). You can also use the middle button to go between 'Focus' (default) and 'Expand' modes anytime as well. The problem is that while the 'Focus' mode follows the entrainment beat chosen, the 'Expand' mode, in my opinion, does not.

In 'Expand' mode both the lights and noise pulses do an echo effect (I think that this is an 180 phase shift) and this essentially doubles the entrainment rate. So, if you thought you were doing a 10hz alpha session on focus mode and then went to expand mode, you were probably doing a 20hz beta session.

I have not tried very many in-built Sirius sessions but I suspect that these may do the same thing.

Maybe just a small flaw in the progamming?

Cheers,
TomC

That's the first time anyone has asked that question, to my knowledge. I'll try and find out for you.

-Andy.

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Originally Posted by TomC

First of all, I've only been using my new Sirius unit (with the white-light frames) for ~ a week now. However, I am a long time Mindplace user and also own a Procyon (+4 months), a Proteus (+ 6 years) and a ThoughtStream (+5 years).

Originally I was going to just upgrade my old optional Proteus Tru-white glasses (ones with the big, pointy LED's) to the new ones with more comfortable frames, but for only ~$50 more I thought it would be fun to try out the Sirius unit (which included these glasses anyway).

Overall, I really love this little unit. It's so simple to use and works very well, esp. as an a Audiostrobe unit. I find that the AS CD's have much better light patterns with this unit compared to my others.

In closed-eye mode I don't personally see a lot of colours with any of my units but I do see, and like, the patterns best with the Sirius unit.

The only problem I've had is with the Manual mode (U2 mode). In this mode you just pick a pitch (before you start your session) and frequency (anytime). You can also use the middle button to go between 'Focus' (default) and 'Expand' modes anytime as well. The problem is that while the 'Focus' mode follows the entrainment beat chosen, the 'Expand' mode, in my opinion, does not.

In 'Expand' mode both the lights and noise pulses do an echo effect (I think that this is an 180 phase shift) and this essentially doubles the entrainment rate. So, if you thought you were doing a 10hz alpha session on focus mode and then went to expand mode, you were probably doing a 20hz beta session.

I have not tried very many in-built Sirius sessions but I suspect that these may do the same thing.

Maybe just a small flaw in the progamming?

Cheers,
TomC

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That's an interesting one, Tom.

You're absolutely correct, but because the eyes and ears hook up to the brain differently, it's actually even more tricky than you have described.

Using 1Hz as an example, in focus mode you get a beep and a flash every second. In expand mode each eye and each ear still gets a pulse every second, but the phase difference introduces the complication you've noticed. This is fine for the sound, as each ear is associated with it's own hemisphere and the phase difference shouldn't really matter, but the eyes don't work the same way. So what you're getting is 1Hz audio and 2Hz visual.

I suspect this is more an oversight than a bug - I wouldn't have even thought about it if you hadn't brought it up.

Cheers,
Craig

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Originally Posted by CraigT

That's an interesting one, Tom.

You're absolutely correct, but because the eyes and ears hook up to the brain differently, it's actually even more tricky than you have described.

Using 1Hz as an example, in focus mode you get a beep and a flash every second. In expand mode each eye and each ear still gets a pulse every second, but the phase difference introduces the complication you've noticed. This is fine for the sound, as each ear is associated with it's own hemisphere and the phase difference shouldn't really matter, but the eyes don't work the same way. So what you're getting is 1Hz audio and 2Hz visual.

I suspect this is more an oversight than a bug - I wouldn't have even thought about it if you hadn't brought it up.

Cheers,
Craig

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Craig,

Thanks for this explanation of the problem. I think it's a bit clearer than mine. I did not know about the sound phasing not having an effect, very interesting. The eye phasing is a problem though since it essentially conflicts with the targetted audio frequency. This cannot be a good thing with respect to BWE. For now on I will just use the focus option in manual mode. Alternatively, I will only use the manual expand with headphones only (no glasses) and/or will use the glasses only but select 1/2 the Hz rate.

Unfortunately, all the Sirius built-in sessions have some degree of Expand mode within them. Sessions 21 and 22 seem to have the least amount of Expand mode and are probably the only ones that I would recommend using with the lightframe glasses. All the other sessions are probably best used with headphones only (no lightframe glasses).

I think that the simple solution is that the frequency of each light channel needs to be reduced by 50% when the Sirius goes into Expand mode. I don't know, but I would think that this could be done with an OS upgrade. Maybe the Sirius chip could be re-flashed through the audio input, like the Proteus/Procyon but I really don't know how difficult this would be to do.

Sorry, I don't mean to 'open a can of worms' but I think this is a fairly serious (or Sirius!) problem and needs to be addressed by MindPlace.

Best cheers,
TomC

Tom

I wondered about this effect you report with my Proteus in manual ( expand ) mode. In other words will I be effectively getting an entrainment frequency of double the HZ ?. However I decided that the red light is still so dominant that the feel of the entrainment was the same. Craigs explanation of alternate hemisphere entrainment won't apply to the Proteus as in expand mode the two colours are still flashing in alternate unison in each eye ( don't think I expressed that well ) The visuals are much much better in 'expand 'mode on the Proteus.

I have been toying with the idea of getting a Sirius as another AS decoder. Can you verify that plugging in the 2 colour Proteus glasses into the Sirius gives a normal (Proteus like) response ?

Mark

Hi Mark,

Yes, the Sirius looks the same with bicolor glasses as the Proteus, and the effect is still the same - the light is twice the frequency of the audio in expand mode.

My feeling is that it really doesn't matter in the slightest - the sessions I've listened to on the Sirius [never spend long enough in expand mode to entrain (6+ minutes) anyway], so I view them as just a very nice way of adding interest and avoiding habituation.

Cheers,
Craig

Remind me to check my references before I make statements! I just checked the Sirius Session Details PDF and there are many sessions that have over 6 minutes of expand mode. I still believe it is relatively unimportant, as it is harmonically related.

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Originally Posted by synaesthesia

Tom

I wondered about this effect you report with my Proteus in manual ( expand ) mode. In other words will I be effectively getting an entrainment frequency of double the HZ ?. However I decided that the red light is still so dominant that the feel of the entrainment was the same. Craigs explanation of alternate hemisphere entrainment won't apply to the Proteus as in expand mode the two colours are still flashing in alternate unison in each eye ( don't think I expressed that well ) The visuals are much much better in 'expand 'mode on the Proteus.

I have been toying with the idea of getting a Sirius as another AS decoder. Can you verify that plugging in the 2 colour Proteus glasses into the Sirius gives a normal (Proteus like) response ?

Mark

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Mark,

Like Craig says, the 2 colour proteus glasses work fine on the Sirius.

Personally I prefer the Sirius white glasses with AS CD's because I find that the light patterns are a lot more vivid. You'll just have to try both and see what you like best. Right now my Sirius unit is my favorite (over my Proteus and Procyon units) for all AS usage, including NP2 sessions.

As far as whether or not this 'expand' mode thing happens with the Proteus or not, I'm not really sure. As an aside, many Proteus and Procyon sessions have a lot of light phase shifts going on. This is to help spice these sessions up a bit. However they probably do so at the cost of some BWE degradation.

I'm not sue that I agree with Craig's statement that this problem 'doesn't matter in the slightest'. My gut feel (as I'm cetainly no L&S machine expert) is that it matters quite a bit. I have been experimenting with multiple AS tracks using NP2 and it seems to make a difference to me.

I agree with Craig that it is a good idea to shift frequencies a bit during most sessions, esp. long ones, to avoid habituation. However, I think it's better to do so by shifting freq's up and down a bit, not as harmonic shifts. Again, this is just my gut feel and I could very well be wrong about all this.

I guess that's the beauty of all this stuff. There are no right and wrong answers, just whatever works for you!

I would still like to see MindPlace address this issue with the Sirius expand mode at some time though.

Cheers,
TomC

Tom,

I'm not sure if I agree with myself either - I'm tired and I don't think enough is truly known about complex stimuli to really have anything more than an opinion.

When I get the EEG doing useful things maybe I'll be able to test out some of these theories, but in the meantime, I definitely agree with your 'whatever works for you' philosophy :)

Cheers,
Craig

Thanks Craig, we've both got honest views, but who really knows how all these things come together! Suck and see, is all we can really do.

Mark, I managed to check out my Proteus in user mode and I'm afraid the Expand mode does the same thing as it does with the Sirius. It's a bit harder to see with all those LED's flashing. I reprogrammed my Proteus to OS 2.8, selected monocolour mode and used my whiteframe glasses. It was then very easy to see that it was doing exactly the same thing as the Sirius. Again, I don't really know how big an issue this is, but at least you and others are aware of it.

Cheers,
TomC

Thanks for looking into it , Tom. I hadn't noticed the monocolour option in the Procyon editor.

I guess at the end of the day, whether you have mono or dual color frames , th eresult of expand mode, is the same. Effectively a doubling of the light frequency of that indicated when you are in manual mode. I don't think its such a problem with dual colour glasses as the red is still so dominant but mono white colour glasses the potential for upsetting the desired entrainment frquency may well be there.

Prehaps this is something Craig can look into when he settles in with his EEG.

Mark

Mark,

Just my opinion but even with dual-lights I would avoid using the Proteus manual expand mode if you are really trying to entrain to a specific freq. I'd just use the normal lightframe mode; not as entertaining, but probably a bit better for entraining.

Ya, it will be interesting to see some of Craig's EEG findings. I might dust off my old Thoughtstream unit and see if I can see any significant differences myself.

Cheers,
TomC

Greetings!

The 'focus vs expand' frequency issue is not a 'bug' but rather a design decision--we definitely spent some time mulling over whether to double the frequency in 'expand' mode vs. 'focus', and decided on the present approach because light entering one closed eye actually stimulates both hemispheres, though more strongly in the contralateral hemisphere. So, 10 hz alternating left/right (5 hz each side) still does produce 10 Hz stimulation, with some phase shifts due to cortical propagation delays, etc.

It is possible under controlled circumstances to affect only the contralateral hemisphere by stimulating only the 'hemifield'--a region in the far left or right of the visual field (this only works with eyes open, due to the diffusing nature of the closed eyelids). Dr. Tom Budzynski had a prototype hemifield system built for him in the mid to late 1980s and gathered a fair amount of data using a 21 channel Lexicore EEG. He found that it was possible to stimulate left and right visual cortices to different frequencies but only for brief periods; he told me that after some seconds they would 'snap back' to a share frequency after that. He also told me that it was very difficult to carry this out if the two stimulation frequencies were more than two or three hz apart, which is why we decided not to pursue this line of research back in the late 80s.

There are some supposed 'hemifield' stimulation glasses on the market today, but despite the neat concept, they most likely do not work as advertised (again, you need to have your eyes open and be staring straight ahead in order to achieve hemifield stimulation/activation of the visual cortex).

Hope this helps!

--Robert

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Originally Posted by Robert Austin

Greetings!

The 'focus vs expand' frequency issue is not a 'bug' but rather a design decision--we definitely spent some time mulling over whether to double the frequency in 'expand' mode vs. 'focus', and decided on the present approach because light entering one closed eye actually stimulates both hemispheres, though more strongly in the contralateral hemisphere. So, 10 hz alternating left/right (5 hz each side) still does produce 10 Hz stimulation, with some phase shifts due to cortical propagation delays, etc.

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Robert,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree with everthing you've said (well the bits that I can understand anyway).

I understand your statement that if each eye is getting 5hz alternating (180 deg out of phase) then the net result is 10hz. I do this when I make a NP2 session and want something a little more entertaining than single flashes but without affecting the entrainment frequency.

The problem with the Sirius/Proteus user expand feature is 10hz produces 10hz (not 5hz) on each eye and alternates (180 deg phase shift) so by your logic, this results in a 20hz net effect.

I might be misunderstanding your point(s) so maybe you could help clarify this for me. Many thanks.

Cheers,
TomC

An interesting post from Robert Austin.

I notice that between 20 and 30hz, I can't really percieve any visual difference between normal and expand mode with my Procyon ( although I can hear it) . It seems at that speed I only seem to visually process the red flash.

Gents,

I think the main question which has emerged from this thread is, how to handle the 'expand' frequencies as related to 'focus'? There are two options:

1. Set the 'expand' frequency to the same as 'focus', so that at 10 Hz 'focus', this alternates left/right at half the 'focus frequency, per side (that is, 5 Hz each left/right, out of phase)

2. Set the 'focus' frequency such that the left eye receives 10 Hz, and the right eye 10 Hz, when 'focus' is set to 10 Hz.

We've played with both approaches over the years, and I'm personally still not sure which may be most useful to you, our users.

How about we set up a poll, and you can all vote on it? It's possible that this could become a programmable option in the future, at least for the Proteus. As I recall we don't have much if any memory left in the Sirius to add an 'either 1 or 2' option, but it is inevitable that we eventually update the Sirius with a new model, and this could have some flash memory (like the Proteus and Procyon) to store your favorite option.

Should we set up a poll, then?

-Robert

My two cents worth - don't worry about it or do away with the expand feature completely. With monocolor glasses I find it annoying, and with bicolor glasses I don't find it particularly interesting.

As the entrainment virtue of either frequency strategy is so subject to debate, treat it as a novelty and either use it or don't.

Cheers,
Craig

Robert,

I'd never say no to a good poll but I'm not sure it's necessary. I think that you will end up with a huge wish-list that will be impossible to do. To be honest, I know that many things on my wish list are 'nice to haves' as opposed to 'need to haves'.

I'd say that the simplest approach would be just to modify the current Usr Expand visual to honour the Focus entrainment frequency as you've described in point (1.). I'd guess this would be a fairly straightforward update for the Proteus and maybe a flash option for the Sirius (or something to add to a new updated Sirius), without any additional memory requirements.

I know it's pretty hard, or impossible, to satisfy all user requests. For example, unlike Craig I like expand (alternating freq's) down to as low as 2hz (1hz for each eye alternating), even with moncolour glasses (separate left/right channels).

So maybe the best thing is to do as Craig says and just get rid of the Expand feature in the Usr mode on both the Proteus and Sirius machines (or at least the new Sirius units) and just retain the Usr Focus feature. At least then the Usr mode (focus only) will be honouring the entrainment frequency selected. This would also be a nice, simple update option for a Procyon Usr model as well (hint-hint).

As far as in-built sessions go, I don't think that it is necessary to modify any Proteus or Procyon sessions since a user can use the editor to modify them if they so wish.

However, on the Siruis in-built sessions I really think that the the Expand mode used in all sessions should be modified so that in the Expand part of each session it halves the current visual right/left frequency (but not the audio freq, they're fine as is) and hence honours each session's freq's.

If you could make a flash update on the Sirius to allow these modified sessions to be updated (and/or the old ones to be returned) that would be great. Another simpler approach would be to modify all the Sirius sessions sectors to Focus only. However, I think that most would find this a bit too boring.

Anyway, just my $0.02 worth.

Cheers,
TomC

I like the expand feature. I find on my Proteus a much richer visual experience particularly in the Alpha range.

The issue over display target frequency is certainly complicated by the way the various glasses display it: each eye flasing alternately is certainly a differnt experience to having two colours flash alternately in unison in both eyes. I don't know how many people use manual mode much , I certainly use it.

I'm in favor , as there is no general agrrement on the neurological effects of expand mode to just leave the displays the way they are and keep in mund that it is an `experimental ' mode.

Perhaps someone with an EEG could do some experimentation and find out if with the two differnt kinds of glasses , that brainwave frequencies are actually enhanced at double the frequency in expand mode.

Mark