explanation of the standard sessions
Proteus comes with 49 standard sessions.
The list in the manual only gives a category, length and a name.
The names are often (almost) the same.
And the category names are even changed in the new manual.
That does rise a lot of questions.
What does a category mean?
For instance: what is the difference of relaxation, well being, energizing and sleep (or tranquility and deep rest)? What is the effect? When do you want to run it?
For instance. I'm tired, didn't sleep well, want to get fit: which category should I use?
I'm stressed, want to get rid of that: idem.
Then the difference of the MindLab + category names versus the description names: what's the difference? For instance: Mind Sauna and Mindlab Relax 25: both category Realxation and the same length, what's the difference?
I started using a brainmachine with borroughing the Novag Activator. It worked very well. Program 10, 35 minutes, "deep relaxation and regeneration" was my favorite. It came whith a long description of a full page. They were completely right in their description. But I can't find a program of Proteus with the same merrits!
Best would be a discription of all the sessions like the ones in the Activators manual. And / or a guide comparing the Acivators programs with the sessions of Proteus.
Second best a explanation of the categories and names of Proteus.
And trial and error?
That does not work. Because if a session didn't give the results you hoped for, you don't know if that's because you chose the wrong session, or that you just had bad luck (for instance: you where too tired).
Rein
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Hi Rein,
Quote:
Originally Posted by livingtale
Proteus comes with 49 standard sessions.
The list in the manual only gives a category, length and a name.
The names are often (almost) the same.
And the category names are even changed in the new manual.
I'm guessing that the changing of a few of the names has something to do with the FDA and Mindplace having to be careful not to make any medical claims about the product.
Even though research supports positive results to many medical conditions no light and sound machine on the market (not just ours, all Light and Sound machines) has FDA approval and therefore no manufacturer who sells in the U.S. is allowed to make any medical claims.
Although "relaxation" and "sleep" are not medical conditions per se', if this was the reason for the name change the company doesn't want to imply that the machines can be used to cure stress conditions or sleep problems.
Quote:
That does rise a lot of questions.
What does a category mean?
For instance: what is the difference of relaxation, well being, energizing and sleep (or tranquility and deep rest)? What is the effect? When do you want to run it?
The difference between any of the sessions is the targeted brainwave frequency and when you know what each set of frequencies do, you are better able to choose an appropriate program. The Mindplace support site posts a Table of the session frequencies: http://mindplacesupport.com/content/proteus-content/
Quote:
For instance. I'm tired, didn't sleep well, want to get fit: which category should I use?
I'm stressed, want to get rid of that: idem.
Then the difference of the MindLab + category names versus the description names: what's the difference? For instance: Mind Sauna and Mindlab Relax 25: both category Relaxation and the same length, what's the difference?
I've also attached a spreadsheet that I came up with that should help give you some further insight. Okay -- Disclaimer -- any medical claims made in the attached spreadsheet came from me and whatever sources I found them in and not Mindplace. :)
Quote:
I started using a brainmachine with borrowing the Novag Activator. It worked very well. Program 10, 35 minutes, "deep relaxation and regeneration" was my favorite. It came with a long description of a full page. They were completely right in their description. But I can't find a program of Proteus with the same merits!
I'm not sure who makes Brain machine and if they are under the same restrictions of print that Mindplace is. Is it possible to scan a page of the manual and send it to me? I'd really like to see it.
I wish that Mindplace was allowed to say more about what the machines could do without recrimination from the FDA. Perhaps one day, someone will invest the millions of dollars required to get FDA approval and people won't have to read between the lines.
Quote:
Best would be a description of all the sessions like the ones in the Activators manual. And / or a guide comparing the Acivators programs with the sessions of Proteus.
Second best a explanation of the categories and names of Proteus.
I appreciate your taking the time to write about what you would like to see in a manual. As I mentioned earlier, I would love to see a page of that manual and then evaluate if something like that is possible for MP to do.
In the mean time, if there is something in particular that you want to work on (for example: sleep, memory etc., let me know in a PM and I'll tell you what sessions are best for that.
Just so you know, I'm not an employee of Mindplace. I have my own company, but I do work with them (I'm the Canadian Distributor) and so I frequently do pass on customer feedback to them.
I did send them an email and asked about the name changes on the categories and if it's not for the FDA/medical claim reason ... then I'm eating crow ew and will post their reasons. :cheers:
Marisa
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Thank of your reply, Marisa
I'm afraid that posting the manual of the Novag Mind Activator won't do any good: it is translated and I have the dutch version only.
I noticed the frequency table before, but that does not tell me anything.
Your own list is much better, but it needs a lot of 'translation'. Your article on "Light and Sound Technology" is great. I need it to understand your table (anyway, I will try). Do you have it in text format (txt, doc etc), because it would be great to print it, so I can read the table.
What would be great, and I hope Mind Place is reading this, is a explanation from the writer of the sessions: what was his purpose, and reports from using it: does it what the writer wanted it to do.
The program I used with the Novag machine (10) mentioned the following:
(a very small translation):
totall rest, regeneration, buiding concentration, peak of the day.
Deep relaxation can have the effect of severall hours of sleep....
Deep relaxation does not mean sleep. This way of relaxation, relaxes the body, but keeps awake the mind with light and sound. Your feeling of time can change during the deep relaxation. After awaking users often feel that the program was only 5 to 7 minutes... the personal experience doesn't match what realy happened.
When watching users during the program you can see that they are totally incapicitated and even snore. Afterwards some say that they even didn't relax.... (except the snoring, quit true for me, but my tiredness is gone).
Light: high level, will become less intense further on
Sound: no music is recommended
I've personally very much trouble sleeping. Tried everything. At this moment greatest problem is sleeping long enough. I awake just before getting enough sleep. The brainmachine doesn't help with that problem directly. But it does help getting energy later at the day when feeling very tired. A lot of times after using program 10 my tiredness was gone.
Rein
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Awesome work Mindman!
Would it be okay if I copy this information and pass it on to my dealers or anyone else who is interested?
You are such a great asset to this forum. Thanks!
M.
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Hi Rein,
Quote:
I noticed the frequency table before, but that does not tell me anything.
Your own list is much better, but it needs a lot of 'translation'. Your article on "Light and Sound Technology" is great. I need it to understand your table (anyway, I will try). Do you have it in text format (txt, doc etc), because it would be great to print it, so I can read the table.
Sure. Hopefully it's attached.
Quote:
What would be great, and I hope Mind Place is reading this, is a explanation from the writer of the sessions: what was his purpose, and reports from using it: does it what the writer wanted it to do.
I doubt this is possible now, especially with the focus being on bringing out the new products. However, I see Mindman has created something that should do the trick. Perhaps this is something we can work on for the new products.
Quote:
I've personally very much trouble sleeping. Tried everything. At this moment greatest problem is sleeping long enough. I awake just before getting enough sleep.
So you have no problems falling asleep, you are waking up not feeling refreshed? Yes? Do you wake up frequently during the night as well?
When you say that you have "tried everything" ... what do you mean? What have you tried?
What could be happening is that something is interrupting your sleep cycle. Sometimes it's a problem caused by the brain producing Alpha or Beta brainwaves inappropriately (during your delta (stage 4) sleep).
Our sleep cycles are about 90 minutes in length and go from Alpha (low) to Theta to Delta and then back up again. Depending on how many hours we have to sleep, depends on how many cycles we can get in. If you are awakened by your alarm (for example) during a delta stage sleep, you will feel more tired when you awaken then if you woke up during the alpha cycle (lightest).
Putting brain waves aside for a moment, serotonin (neurotransmitter) converts into melatonin at night (when it becomes dark). If you do not have enough serotonin in your system, then you will have problems sleeping. You could try taking a supplement such as melatonin or St. John's Wort or go pharmaceutical and take a low dose of Amitriptyline (10 mg) at bedtime.
Stress lowers your serotonin level. I don't know if you have a lot of stress in your life, but if you do...this is the culprit behind your non-restorative sleep.
You are correct that the L&S machine will not cure this problem, though it can help in other ways, such as you have discovered. BTW, you can use the L&S machine for falling asleep and it will entrain your brain to perhaps stay longer in the deeper sleep cycle. The brain learns through these machines.
Sorry if I'm sounding rather vague but without a more detailed history from you, I'm only guessing. :)
M.
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Hi,
just to honor who is to be honored - I did not create that graphical explanation of the sessions.
It is some guy at the http://proteus.hkjzone.com/forums/
Maybe he will show his face here sooner or later. I don't remember anything to identify the guy.
K.R
MindMan
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MindMan
Hi,
here it comes.
K.R.
MindMan
That's really awesome! Thanks for sharing that Mindman!
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MindMan
Hi, just to honor who is to be honored - I did not create that graphical explanation of the sessions. It is some guy at the
http://proteus.hkjzone.com/forums/ Maybe he will show his face here sooner or later. I don't remember anything to identify the guy.
K.R MindMan
Actually those descriptions were taken from the original 23 Sirius machine sessions which were designed by German scientist Dr. Gerhard Bittner
(see: http://www.elixa.com/mental/OrionPrograms.htm for example).
For the Proteus, they used the original Sirius sessions and added 27 more Mindlab sessions (of dubious worth) to create the 50 sessions.
Dennis
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Correct, we have used both Orion sessions and MindLab sessions, with some modifications to reflect the more advanced capabilities of the newer hardware.
Certain MindLab sessions spend most of their time within a certain stimulation band; for example, "relaxation" are in the 9-12 Hz band, "learning" in the 5-8 Hz band, "sleep" below that; the frequencies ramp continuously within the band in order to induce the desired effect in a broad range of users (since not everyone will respond to a specific frequency in the same way).
In general, session design must be "fuzzy", since there is no EEG feedback to determine the "best" frequency for a given user.
I'm not sure why you would suggest that they are "of dubious worth"; if you have specific reason(s) for making such a comment, please let us know!
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Hi Robert,
Quoting you:
"In general, session design must be "fuzzy", since there is no EEG feedback to determine the "best" frequency for a given user"
I perfectly well understand what your point is. Everybody has got his or her favorite regions, where the brain reacts most strongly on a mind machine.
There is however another point. In order to entrain one needs to be stimulated for some time at any given frequency. How do you make sure that enough stimulation is received at any time with any brain?
And are there any medical authorities that give credit to this type of shot gun tactics?
There is plenty of credit on entrainment at a fixed frequency.
Apart from being a bright idea of yours - is anybody else supporting this?
I.e. any papers on this being efficient at achieving entrainment?
K.R.
MindMan
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MindMan
Hi Robert,
Quoting you:
"In general, session design must be "fuzzy", since there is no EEG feedback to determine the "best" frequency for a given user"
I perfectly well understand what your point is. Everybody has got his or her favorite regions, where the brain reacts most strongly on a mind machine.
There is however another point. In order to entrain one needs to be stimulated for some time at any given frequency. How do you make sure that enough stimulation is received at any time with any brain?
And are there any medical authorities that give credit to this type of shot gun tactics?
There is plenty of credit on entrainment at a fixed frequency.
Apart from being a bright idea of yours - is anybody else supporting this?
I.e. any papers on this being efficient at achieving entrainment?
K.R.
MindMan
Hello, Mindman!
Yes, there are are studies which support the use of frequency "sweeps" vs. fixed frequencies; in fact this approach was included in a patent held by Dr. Harold Russell, Dan Vaughn and myself. One common misconception which has propagated in the LS field is that there are very precise frequencies which produce specific esoteric or medical effects. Though there is some basis for this (i.e., Tansey uses and touts 14 Hz neurofeedback for ADHD, though others more generally use the SMR range of which 14 Hz is a component), it is very unlikely that a fractional Hz will produce the same effect on everyone. That's why we made the Proteus programmable--the included sessions are intended as much as examples as anything else.
Back to frequency sweeps within a band, for example 9-12 Hz: you would be correct if you are suggesting that this is less effective than stimulation at a given user's "ideal" frequency within a band (for example, 10 Hz might be the "best" one for you). However, stimulating at a fixed frequency can lead to habituation: a lessening response to that frequency over time. So, varying the frequency is in part intended to sidestep stimulus induced habituation. Some studies have show that stimulating near an individual's ideal frequency can enhance amplitude at that frequency as well. I would post more details about these studies, except the FDA would consider this medical "labeling" and we do want to comply with their regulations. A good place to reseach LS studies is Pubmed (freely available online) and psychlit (fee based but usually available from State University libraries; I do my main research at the University of Washington).
Hope this clarifies things a bit more!
Robert
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MindMan
Hi,
you will find a graphical description of the standard-sessions (i.e. the frequencies versus time):
K.R.
MindMan
to anyone,
I wonder if you have a doc with the Proycon standard session description like the one for the proteus.
Where I can find a description of the available programs.
Or are the programs the same for both consoles?
Many thanx in advance for your time.
Massimo
1 Attachment(s)
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
massimo
to anyone,
I wonder if you have a doc with the Proycon standard session description like the one for the proteus.
Where I can find a description of the available programs.
Or are the programs the same for both consoles?
Many thanx in advance for your time.
Massimo
We don't have a graphical one like the Proteus. One of our forum members did up the graphical version. I've attached what we do have. Hopefully this will help.
M.
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marisa
We don't have a graphical one like the Proteus. One of our forum members did up the graphical version. I've attached what we do have. Hopefully this will help.
M.
Thank you Marisa,
I really was after, not so much a graphical version, as a layman explination of what each session is reccomended for. Any chance of tracing who did the ones for the Proteus? Or do we know if the sessions are the same in both consoles: The Proteus or the Proycon?
Many thanx again for your kind attention
Massimo
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
massimo
Any chance of tracing who did the ones for the Proteus? Or do we know if the sessions are the same in both consoles: The Proteus or the Proycon?
The original 23 Sirius machine sessions which were designed by German scientist Dr. Gerhard Bittner. Don't know if their the same as the Poteus, some are simular, some are different.
Do you own the Proycon? If so, what do you think of it (and if you know, how does it compare to the Proteus)?
My Proteus has gone through many a set of batteries over the years. Amazing results using several of the programs.
Re: explanation of the standard sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
massimo
Thank you Marisa,
I really was after, not so much a graphical version, as a layman explanation of what each session is recommended for. Any chance of tracing who did the ones for the Proteus? Or do we know if the sessions are the same in both consoles: The Proteus or the Procyon?
Many thanx again for your kind attention
Massimo
Hi Massimo,
I'm not sure which Proteus chart you are talking about. I have two that I refer to. One is a list of the frequencies in each program and the other gives me the range of targeted frequencies in each session. I've attached the two charts that I'm talking about so you have a reference. If you are talking about a different chart than what I've attached, can you send me a copy?
If you get to know what brain state each of the groups of frequencies (Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta) are associated with, then you can look at any of these charts and decide upon which program is best for your intended purposes.
The sessions are similar in both machines as far as the end result (learning, relaxation etc.). The targeted frequencies will be within similar ranges as well. The segments in each session though are different, which doesn't really matter as there are many ways to get to the same goal.
The sessions basically will do what the "description" in the manual says, for example, P 17 - Quick Alertness - will wake you up somewhat, where as Catnap (p43) will put you to sleep.
I'll put it on my "to do" list and see what I can do about coming up with some more detailed descriptions for both the Proteus and Procyon sessions.
Thanks for letting me know what you would like to see. In the meantime, please feel free to ask what program is best for what outcome. I'm more than happy to answer any questions (and I'm quite sure that you are not the only person who has these questions). :)
M.
