Re: Procyon - a user review
Hello Caleb;
I fully agree that your review is quite subjective as many customers have commented in complete contradiction of some of your statements. I will take a moment however to comment on some of your more negative items directly which perhaps you may have been a bit hasty in judging, lest people get the wrong idea.
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Originally Posted by
caleb
1. Delivery:
The fees for transport to Australia were very high which was a negative, but the delivery was also very fast.
I'm afraid we're at the mercy of UPS on this one. We can only pass on the costs to you that we are charged. Getting good deals on shipments within the USA doesn't necessarily mean that we can get good rates for overseas. I'm sure that high shipping costs are a common occurrence for anything coming from the USA to overseas, and is not unique to your situation.
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Originally Posted by
caleb
2. The Package:
However, I was less than impressed with the quality of the manual provided. The manual itself was a low quality printout at best. I would have expected a higher quality output was a product I spent that amount of money for. I also think that the content of the manual could be expanded not just to cover how to use the device, but "HOW" to use the device. I hope the non-existent distinction I've made there is actually apparent. It's annoying to me to buy a device that purports to assist in all manner of ways from entertainment to entrainment, but not really offer much in the way of offering an understanding how it really works. So you're left with a manual that covers how to press a button and a lifetime of reading on the subject all over the internet and in various bookshops to understand how to actually use the device to achieve your aims.
I have purchased MANY modern electronic gadgets and gizmos, and believe me, it's a luxury to get ANY printed manual at all! My recent purchases, an MP3 player, a Wireless router, even my notebook computer came with no printed documentation at all! Just a CD with a PDF for me to read on my PC or print out. Even then the instructions were very rudimentary and basic and went into no detail at all. And these were expensive devices! The fact that MP supplies a colour instruction manual which details the operation, the controls and even details the sessions AND gives instruction on how to use the software is unheard-of in this day and age of "lowest price wins so how can we cut our costs" when it comes to modern consumer electronics.
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Originally Posted by
caleb
It may have been perceived that the forum was going to assist here, but I don't see too much evidence that the forum is a great source of knowledge nor is it particularly active.
I feel you are mistaken here. There is quite a lot of good information here, of course it's not that active, but that's up to the members, of which there are only 51 who have actually posted anything. S&L technology is not a widely-taught or learned science so finding information requires a bit of leg work. There is of course quite a bit of information on the support site, in the reference and library section. Have you already read through all that? I feel that any question asked here on the forum will be answered within the best of our abilities, so for that reason, this forum is quite useful. Many manufacturer's forums have no support from the company, and are filled with nothing but user's questions and no answers. I think this forum is unique in that you can get answers from experienced users, tech support and even the designer of the products! Very rare in the modern world of "don't listen or talk to the customers directly, make them pay for tech support!"
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Originally Posted by
caleb
As for the unit itself, it seems fairly cheap in its construction including the goggles. It was long ago that I had a light and sound device and I remember the goggles being particularly sturdy - like medium cost sunglasses. The glasses for the Procyon are more like a free pair of sunglasses for a child to be found in the latest showbag. The user interface leaves alot to be desired with obvious scrimping in available readouts with no quick dial of user preset numbers - in fact just one key to be used for cycling both up/down through the programs. It's a pity that the interface of a $5 calculator could not be included in the device to make it easier for the user.
The product is quite robust, and we have had no complaints about the glasses. The operation is quite simple and to complicate the controls is unnecessary and would simply add to the cost of the product. In normal operation, there is no need for any further complexity. This is not an MP3 player that needs a readout of title and artist, the interface and readout is completely appropriate for the normal usage of the product.
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Originally Posted by
caleb
Also - the device comes with a carry case that really is poorly designed for carrying the device. You get the feeling when using it that you are cramming everything in and possibly damaging the ultra-cheap build goggles in the process.
Again, check out how many other products in this price range don't include any sort of case at all! This case is for storing the console with all the accessories as opposed to a smaller case which is only big enough for the console leaving you to find another case for the glasses, headphones and spare batteries...
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Originally Posted by
caleb
4. The Procyon Editor
I have to admit, I haven't particularly enjoyed my superficial experience with this. It's not a user friendly program and its installation procedures left alot to be desired.
I do need to spend more time with it to get a feel for it and I haven't given the user instructions the time they probably deserve, but I have to say I created a Brainwave Generator session using a couple of observations about binaural frequencies and a bit of experimentation. I felt no such compulsion when looking at the interface for the Procyon editor.
The editor is really only for experienced users who find that that built-in programs are not to their liking, who know enough about S&L technology to build their own programs and have the time to do so. Currently that's probably less than 1% of our customers. Most customers will just use the product with the built-in programs and never need to install the software or make changes. The software is completely functional and does the purpose for which it was designed. Anything more would be a waste of resources for the small percentage of people who would actually use it.
All that being said, I'm sure that you feel the way you do about your purchase and not much I can say will likely change your mind.
That being said, if you still feel that you are unhappy with this product, please PM me and we'll see what we can do to make you happy by replacing the product or refunding your money.
Re: Procyon - a user review
Andy,
The review I wrote was fairly exhausting to tell you the truth and I had wanted to add some things when I had finished, but once I had completed it was quite late, I was still at work and just wanted to go home.
There are some nice resources on this site and I've collected a few. I particularly liked the "Time Flashes" article despite its suspect spelling throughout. And I should have spent a little more time on the actual presence of this forum in the first place. Although it may not have been the deciding factor in me going with Procyon, it was still significant one. I looked at some other devices and didn't find the friendly "in" to get support that I found here.
From a support perspective, I'm happy that it's here and I also forgot to mention that while I thought I was having issues with USB, I got a number of helpful replies from various administrators, including a follow-up PM. I really should have mentioned that as it was quite a positive experience for me even
if it was my own continued testing that put the issue to rest in the end.
What I was getting at with the manual and the forum was that the manual discussing only how to operate the device and not get real use out of it may have been because the hope was that the forum would be very active and have ongoing explanations, theories and investigations.
This doesn't seem to be the case - the only user sessions available are someone's translation of the Proteus presets for example.
This is a shame and has already got me searching elsewhere - a tough search as most of the forums I come up with would rather have you starving for a day and not having any sex for a week before even trying to reach the kinds of states I'm interested in. Using a light and sound device to explore these areas will probably quickly brand you as an idiot in these places.
I do think the build quality appears quite cheap including the glasses, but they arrived and all components seem fully functional. I was very worried that this would not be the case after I inspected the device - so I'm relieved that all is fine despite my concerns.
The carry case looks to be an afterthought that could have benefited from a bit more thought. I'm particularly worried about the glasses surviving being moved around a bit crammed in with the other components like that, but for my own situation, it isn't actually an issue and I've made it easier on myself by dumping the included headphones and using my own ear-bud wraparounds instead. This will make the carry case more useful for me.
Yeah I guess getting a printout of the manual is a bit of a bonus. Truth was, I wasn't expecting it and had already printed out the manual and bound it in preparation for the device arriving. So half an arse is better than none in this case.
And I do agree that the inclusion of the editing software explanation is a bonus considering that it seems MindPlace doesn't expect most users to actually use the software at all. That also explains the lack of written material on what kind of use you can really get out of the device. Maybe it is just meant to be a novelty device and I'm not a typical buyer.
However, some things in the manual I don't consider to be a bonus. If you're telling me that it would be common to get a device like this with nothing but three digit readouts of included programs and absolutely no explanation of what those numbers mean in the included material then I would say that is one industry that needs a severe smack in the head. I don't see how anyone would think of something like this as a luxury for this kind of product.
I got this device to explore and I haven't had a huge indication that this exploration is not going to be possible with the L&S technology or Procyon. I think that with the arrival of the PreSage some time this year(?), that might make things even more interesting.
But it looks like I'm going to have to do some groundwork before the real exploration is to begin.
I tried program 22 last night for a fairly deep meditation along with a breathing focus exercise. The exercise didn't have the desired result and had me itching to take off the device and roll over to sleep. I don't think I got close to the 60 minute program expiring. I'm not blaming the program at this stage as I ate dinner very late last night (11pm or so) and this might have been a significant factor in the apparent failure. I will try again shortly as I get ready for bed.
Despite my comments about things like packaging and user interface design etc... which were meant as feedback to MindPlace, the most important concerns for me is:
1. The device is functional and adaptable (AudioStrobe, Biofeedback, programmable etc..)
2. It can be powered from the mains
3. It is fit for my purpose in buying it
Point 1 will be ticked off 100% probably when PreSage is released. Point 2 I've taken care of with a USB power adaptor and Point 3 is (hopefully) a work in progress.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Procyon - a user review
Hi Caleb,
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caleb
What I was getting at with the manual and the forum was that the manual discussing only how to operate the device and not get real use out of it may have been because the hope was that the forum would be very active and have ongoing explanations, theories and investigations.
I think you can still have what you wish for on the forum. Please keep in mind that this forum is new, it just started this year and is just getting going. We are adding information as we go and as members request it.
If there is something specific you want to know about, ask and I'll see if I can find you an answer or explanation.
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This doesn't seem to be the case - the only user sessions available are someone's translation of the Proteus presets for example.
Once again, the Procyon was just released this year and expecting user contributions this soon, I think is unrealistic. You do have 49 programs that cover a whole range of applications. As Andy mentioned in his reply to your review, there is only a very small percentage of people who want to program the machine. Most people get what they need from the preset programs.
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This is a shame and has already got me searching elsewhere - a tough search as most of the forums I come up with would rather have you starving for a day and not having any sex for a week before even trying to reach the kinds of states I'm interested in. Using a light and sound device to explore these areas will probably quickly brand you as an idiot in these places.
I think your expectations of what you believe a machine can do are too high. The light and sound machines only work upon influencing your brain waves into certain state - what you achieve while in those states is up to the individual and their skill at self-hypnosis and meditation. That skill comes from practice.
Despite some of the lofty claims other manufactures attribute to their machines, all Light & Sound machines work on the same principle of brain wave entrainment. Sure, some people who use a L&S machine (any machine) will have an out of body experience, some will achieve deep states of meditation, some will find their concentration significantly improved and some may not achieve any of these states. It depends on the individual and how they use their mind and the machine.
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I do think the build quality appears quite cheap including the glasses, but they arrived and all components seem fully functional. I was very worried that this would not be the case after I inspected the device - so I'm relieved that all is fine despite my concerns.
Well, you really can ease your concerns as we have a very good warranty and take good care of our customers. We do not get a lot of warranty replacement requests which tells me that our machines are pretty solid.
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Maybe it is just meant to be a novelty device and I'm not a typical buyer.
We do not publish the therapeutic uses for the machine only because of FDA regulations. The machine is not classified as a medical device and therefore we can not make any medical/therapeutic claims about it without landing in legal hot water.
Having said that, I do have plenty of dealers and customers who do use the machines therapeutically and metaphysically. Once again, our machines can do the same (and more) as any other light and sound machine on the market and if their manufacturers are reckless enough to make medical claims, well, I'm sure they'll eventually get their turn at facing the FDA.
Keep in mind that the FDA only governs the U.S. which happens to be where Mindplace is situated and that other countries are not as militant as the FDA in policing claims about alternative health products.
In order to get FDA approval, Mindplace would have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe even millions) and as a result would no longer be able to offer the machines at these low prices. All the light and sound machines on the market that are sold in the U.S. face the same challenges that we do.
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I got this device to explore and I haven't had a huge indication that this exploration is not going to be possible with the L&S technology or Procyon.
So what exactly is it that you are expecting this or any light and sound machine to do?
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I think that with the arrival of the PreSage some time this year(?), that might make things even more interesting.
Um didn't you just write a scathing review about our products? If you are so disappointed, why would you even consider buying the PreSage? Given your expectations, Caleb, I don't think we can please you.
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But it looks like I'm going to have to do some groundwork before the real exploration is to begin.
Yes. Good idea.
I
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tried program 22 last night for a fairly deep meditation along with a breathing focus exercise. The exercise didn't have the desired result and had me itching to take off the device and roll over to sleep. I don't think I got close to the 60 minute program expiring. I'm not blaming the program at this stage as I ate dinner very late last night (11pm or so) and this might have been a significant factor in the apparent failure. I will try again shortly as I get ready for bed.
If you don't want to fall asleep, you may not want to do this before bed. If you are tired, you will fall asleep because the theta state is the state that your brain is in just before you fall asleep.
I appreciate you taking the time to write a review and you being honest about your feelings regarding the machine. I think you were a bit harsh in some of your judgments however, I also think that you are entitled to your opinion and shouldn't be censored for having it.
M.
Re: Procyon - a user review
Marisa - your remarks about the forum are fair enough. If it's in its infancy, maybe it will pick up. It's a bit frustrating at the moment for me because I'm at the learning end, so I can't spark great conversations giving all my fantastic insights into what I can do with the product - so maybe I'll have to journey alone for a while and come back and share what I've found at a later time. Maybe that's what some of the others are doing.
I have bought Awakening Mind I which will probably help me using Brainwave Generator in conjunction with Procyon as I understand you cannot create the kinds of sessions mentioned in that book in the Procyon itself due to limitations of the device. Additionally, I am looking further for more information on how to use Light and Sound technology as a facilitator for various aims: self-hypnosis, learning enhancement, deep relaxation/meditation, alternate states of consciousness/astral projection etc....
If I have any success maybe I can come back and share what I've learned with other Procyon users.
Meanwhile I'll still hang around here for the time being asking various questions, replying to posts etc... Who knows, this forum could still become a hotbed of scientific and metaphysical exploration into the uses of Light and Sound using products like Procyon and PreSage as the tools. If I were a potential customer out there, seeing that kind of activity in a forum would have me taking out my wallet immediately. After all, this place having a forum at all influenced me in my purchase.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Procyon - a user review
Hi Caleb,
Quote:
Marisa - your remarks about the forum are fair enough. If it's in its infancy, maybe it will pick up. It's a bit frustrating at the moment for me because I'm at the learning end, so I can't spark great conversations giving all my fantastic insights into what I can do with the product - so maybe I'll have to journey alone for a while and come back and share what I've found at a later time. Maybe that's what some of the others are doing.
Perhaps you will have to journey alone for a while and perhaps you could post some of your findings here and spark some interest in a conversation. I'm sure there are many who share the same concerns, frustrations and goals. Maybe if you discover something you can help others as well.
As I said before, if I have a better idea of what you want, I may be able to make some suggestions.
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I have bought Awakening Mind I which will probably help me using Brainwave Generator in conjunction with Procyon as I understand you cannot create the kinds of sessions mentioned in that book in the Procyon itself due to limitations of the device.
I'm not sure if it's possible or not. What limitations are you referring on the Procyon?
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Additionally, I am looking further for more information on how to use Light and Sound technology as a facilitator for various aims: self-hypnosis, learning enhancement, deep relaxation/meditation, alternate states of consciousness/astral projection etc....
Okay, I can help you with most of these. Are you wondering which programs are best for each of these goals? If so, I'll take a closer look at the programs and let you know. On the self hypnosis route, I wrote a tutorial on creating a self-hypnosis tape in the scripts section of the forum http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...read.php?t=229 .
We can have a discussion on how to achieve deep states of trance. I have lots of experience in this area as I am a Certified Master Practitioner in NLP and Hypnosis. It's a big area so perhaps if you ask me questions, I'll be able to provide you with more detailed information.
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If I have any success maybe I can come back and share what I've learned with other Procyon users.
Yes please.
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Meanwhile I'll still hang around here for the time being asking various questions, replying to posts etc...
Good
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Who knows, this forum could still become a hotbed of scientific and metaphysical exploration into the uses of Light and Sound using products like Procyon and PreSage as the tools.
That would be cool. Maybe your contributions could be a catalyst for it to go in that direction.
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If I were a potential customer out there, seeing that kind of activity in a forum would have me taking out my wallet immediately. After all, this place having a forum at all influenced me in my purchase.
Thank you for your response. I look forward to further conversations with you. Caleb, we may not always agree ... but that is allowed here for both of us ... all of us.
:cheers:
M
Re: Procyon - a user review
Actually Marisa, I had worked out that you had experise in Hypnotherapy to some degree due to various references you had made and I've read the small docco you posted regarding the generation of scripts.
I've temporarily got a one-track mind with self-hypnosis - as yet another tool with which to explore the metaphysical - specifically astral projection. I keep getting back to it I know, but it's a primary concern for me at the moment and the main reason I started exploring light and sound technology again after all these years.
But I'll post about this in a separate thread.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Procyon - a user review
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marisa
I'm not sure if it's possible or not. What limitations are you referring on the Procyon?
Marisa, what I mean by this is that Procyon doesn't seem to have the capability of layering voices.
From what I can see in the editor you have the ability to select a frequency for the left and a frequency for the right. This creates the offset that entrains the brain.
However, from my initial reading of Awakening Mind I, it seems that combinations of offsets can produce certain types of states - eg mind awake, body asleep.
From what I'm reading it looks like mind awake body asleep states can be achieved by combining alpha/beta offsets with delta offsets.
The good thing with the Procyon is that it's flexible enough with various external gear that I could probably use Brainwave Generator to create a sound-only session like that above, export it to wave, mix it with some soothing music, create a SynchroMuse session with Procyon so that I can use all 3 colour leds in the googles synchronised to the AudioStrobe session. Store the whole thing on my MD player and I've got a session on the go.
I don't know what competitors can match this flexibility and I don't really care. I can tell you that it's a whole different order of sophistication above what I was using a decade ago.
That said, maybe I can start a thread about the possibility of adding multiple voices to the current functionality in a later OS upgrade or later model or something.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Procyon - a user review
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caleb
Marisa, what I mean by this is that Procyon doesn't seem to have the capability of layering voices.
The only way that you could do this is if you bought a mixer that could lay multiple tracks. Now, I'm not sure what effect the layering of voices would do ... other than sound really cool. I don't believe there is a L&S machine out there that does this only because laying of voices will not have an effect on brain waves - at least not any differently than the pulsing lights and sound.
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From what I can see in the editor you have the ability to select a frequency for the left and a frequency for the right. This creates the offset that entrains the brain.
Well, what entrains the brain is the frequency created. Binaural beats are very powerful in that you have one frequency in one ear and another in the other ear and the mind creates a third frequency somewhere in between. Most of the preset programs use binaural beats.
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From what I'm reading it looks like mind awake body asleep states can be achieved by combining alpha/beta offsets with delta offsets.
If the beta is too strong or for too long, it will bring you out of the trance. The timing could be a bit tricky and would need to be played with to get it right. I don't think you want to go into Delta too much because it will take you beyond the "lucid" state. What you do want is a really good theta state and then inject some alpha in it to bring you almost out of the trance but not quite. From there, you could do some lucid dreaming.
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The good thing with the Procyon is that it's flexible enough with various external gear that I could probably use Brain wave Generator to create a sound-only session like that above, export it to wave, mix it with some soothing music, create a SynchroMuse session with Procyon so that I can use all 3 color LEDs in the goggles synchronized to the AudioStrobe session. Store the whole thing on my MD player and I've got a session on the go.
Well, it's certainly worth a try. Please do post your results!
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I don't know what competitors can match this flexibility and I don't really care. I can tell you that it's a whole different order of sophistication above what I was using a decade ago.
No one out there can match the programmability of the Procyon. Honestly. :hello2:
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That said, maybe I can start a thread about the possibility of adding multiple voices to the current functionality in a later OS upgrade or later model or something.
Voices don't produce a frequency that would affect brain waves. It all has to do with the beats per second. The voices though can affect the mind hypnotically and there is potential in creating a really cool audiostrobe or regular CD that can induce an OBE when played along with the Procyon.
M.
Re: Procyon - a user review
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caleb
Actually Marisa, I had worked out that you had experise in Hypnotherapy to some degree due to various references you had made and I've read the small docco you posted regarding the generation of scripts.
I've temporarily got a one-track mind with self-hypnosis - as yet another tool with which to explore the metaphysical - specifically astral projection. I keep getting back to it I know, but it's a primary concern for me at the moment and the main reason I started exploring light and sound technology again after all these years.
But I'll post about this in a separate thread.
Regards
Caleb
I look forward to that conversation. :headbang:
Re: Procyon - a user review
so whatever happend with Dr. Caleb and his research?:icon_wink:
