Body asleep, mind awake state
This is a fairly traditional state for astral projection according to Awakening Mind I.
This book describes ways in which one would put together such a session, but talks about the benefit of having two tones playing at the same time in each ear so that you get two distinct average frequencies and two distinct offsets for the purpose of entrainment.
Leaving aside whether this is a valid approach or not, Procyon cannot handle multiple tones (voices).
So I was thinking about how one would put together a body asleep, mind awake session.
Awakening Mind I has details on how to created a body asleep, mind awake session which involve using multiple voices - I am trying to work out how to simulate this using Procyon's "limitations".
I envisage having the first segment a simple 10 minute with 3Hz offset with avg frequency around 196Hz.
The second segment in Awakening Mind I involves having two voices play in a segment of 30 minutes with 3Hz offset (avg freq 196Hz) and 10Hz offset (avg freq 400Hz). I can't do this in Procyon so I was thinking something like the following:
1: 3Hz offset with avg freq 196Hz for 5 minutes
2: 3Hz->10Hz offset with avg freq ramping from 196 to 400Hz for 2 minutes
3: 10Hz offset with avg freq 400Hz for 1 minute
4: 10Hz->3Hz offset with avg freq ramping from 400 to 196Hz for 2 minutes
Loop segments 1 to 4 three times.
I'll have to ramp the volume down/up when going from 196Hz to 400Hz as I don't think you'd want 400Hz to be too loud.
I thought using ramps might a good idea both with the offsets and frequencies rather than sharp pitch adjustment. However, it might be easier to ramp the avg frequency and just cut across to the new offset.
There is an ending segment as well, but it will probably follow a similar pattern to this really.
The question is - would this be the way to adjust a segment such as is listed in Awakening Mind I to fit with Procyon's features?
Regards
Caleb
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caleb
This is a fairly traditional state for astral projection according to Awakening Mind I.
This book describes ways in which one would put together such a session, but talks about the benefit of having two tones playing at the same time in each ear so that you get two distinct average frequencies and two distinct offsets for the purpose of entrainment.
Is it possible that the author is trying to create a binaural beat? Does the author specify what frequencies s/he is aiming for? Obviously it can't be any ol frequency because that wouldn't make sense?
Quote:
Leaving aside whether this is a valid approach or not, Procyon cannot handle multiple tones (voices).
The easiest way to do this would be to create a cd with the tone you want and use it with the Procyon. Tone and frequency are two different things.
The Procyon doesn't produce multiple tones because each tone is associated with a frequency. There wouldn't be much point in layering different frequencies - at least not one that I can think of. :eusa_think:
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So I was thinking about how one would put together a body asleep, mind awake session.
Cool.
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Awakening Mind I has details on how to created a body asleep, mind awake session which involve using multiple voices - I am trying to work out how to simulate this using Procyon's "limitations".
Hmmm I think before you go to all the trouble of trying to create multiple tones, you may want to further investigate whether multiple tones will have any effect on the brain at all.
I don't think multiple tones will as we are constantly exposed to multiple tones in our every day life. Multiple frequencies - depending on which ones you choose and how you use them may or may not have an effect. If anything, it'll have a general effect, not a profound one. Our brain already produces a variety of frequencies simultaneously. What ever state we are in reflects which frequency is dominant. You will not be able to create a beta/theta dominant frequency, though you could create a theta frequency that has bursts of high beta that runs for a few seconds (to keep you from falling asleep).
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I envisage having the first segment a simple 10 minute with 3Hz offset with avg frequency around 196Hz.
Well, you can only go up to 75 Hz with the Procyon (which is higher than any L&S machine on the market can go). I'm not sure how you plan on getting to 196 Hz. In addition, the only research I've seen that correlates to that high of frequency is an epileptic seizure. Be careful with what you do to your brain.
Sustained high frequencies (24 Hz +) can produce anxiety and agitation. You may want to touch upon those frequencies briefly but you don't want to remain there very long.
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The question is - would this be the way to adjust a segment such as is listed in Awakening Mind I to fit with Procyon's features?
I don't think so. I don't agree with what the book proposes but then I don't believe that astral projection is a phenomena that exists outside of ones imagination either.
I am curious to see what you come up with and the results you get.
:)
M.
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Marisa - when I'm talking about average frequency I'm talking about pitch, when I'm talking about offset frequency I'm talking about binaural frequency.
So the pitch of the tone itself is set to an average (left + right / 2) of 196Hz. I'm not sure what the significance of this pitch is exactly, but it's the one that James Mann uses in his book with the concept that the pitch of the frequency can also have varying effects.
Eg. a binaural frequency of 10 Hz at an average pitch frequency of 196Hz might have a different result from a binaural frequency of 10 Hz at an average pitch frequency of 400Hz.
The author here is talking about being able to mix an alpha inducing binaural frequency with a delta binaural frequency at the same time.
You can't do that with Procyon, but what I thought you might be able to do is vary the binaural frequency throughout the session to switch between delta and alpha. I was hoping to get feedback on how I was applying the theory to Procyon to get a body asleep, mind awake effect. This in itself probably would not induce an OBE - that requires some interaction on my part I would imagine, but the state itself is a valuable one in experimenting with OBEs.
The session I described in my original post is a bit like the session I tried to put together last night on the Procyon. I've also put together a session on the Brainwave Generator using both binaurals at the same time and I wanted to mix this with Procyon's lights using SynchroMuse - but it didn't work. I may have to just create an AudioStrobe session instead and see how it goes.
As I only have information on how to put together the sound side of the session, I'm trying to go with my gut for the visual side. I'm not using any form of color theory at all (if any exists for this kind of thing) and I'm just trying to have it "strobing" to the delta frequency of 4Hz. I didn't vary it during the brieft segments of alpha as I thought it might be good to have the lights at delta with the audio at alpha.
The only thing I played around with was the phasing of the three colors throughout the segments, but I didn't do it with a particular purpose other than to vary the mixing of the colors.
I actually think my session started off with a mistake as the lights started with a 4Hz flicker. It felt a bit incongrous to me probably because entrainment works better if you ramp downwards from a low beta state. I think the audio side probably suffered from the same problem. The pulse effect of the lights at 4Hz was fairly profound over time though.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Hi Caleb,
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caleb
Marisa - when I'm talking about average frequency I'm talking about pitch, when I'm talking about offset frequency I'm talking about binaural frequency.
:confused1: EEK! LOL You could keep it simple and use the terms we are familiar with. :icon_wink:
Quote:
So the pitch of the tone itself is set to an average (left + right / 2) of 196Hz. I'm not sure what the significance of this pitch is exactly, but it's the one that James Mann uses in his book with the concept that the pitch of the frequency can also have varying effects.
:dontknow: Let's see ... I don't know a whole lot about how pitch affects the brain other than higher frequencies would be more energizing and lower frequencies more relaxing. I also think of music and there maybe something that is related to musical notes/tones and the brain. I'll have to look into this further.
Quote:
The author here is talking about being able to mix an alpha inducing binaural frequency with a delta binaural frequency at the same time.
Well, only one frequency (range) is usually dominant (in the brain) at a time, while the other frequency ranges are still active but in the background. If you tried to introduce Alpha and Delta, the brain may just pick one of the frequencies to entrain to or it may pick a frequency between the two (Theta). You will never have both Alpha and Delta dominant at the same time. You will not have Delta be dominant while you are awake - if Delta becomes dominant, you will likely have fallen asleep.
Perhaps the author was looking to just increase the level of either Delta or Alpha in the brain while the other frequency is dominant. What you could do to make that happen is design a Theta/Delta program and after a few minutes inject Alpha for a minute or two.
When we sleep our brain pattern goes as follows: Alpha, Theta, Delta, Theta, Alpha. Delta is deep asleep and no dreaming occurs. Dreaming only occurs in Theta or low Alpha - which is the frequencies you want to target for Lucid Dreaming and Astral work.
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You can't do that with Procyon, but what I thought you might be able to do is vary the binaural frequency throughout the session to switch between delta and alpha.
You could try that and see how it works.
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I was hoping to get feedback on how I was applying the theory to Procyon to get a body asleep, mind awake effect. This in itself probably would not induce an OBE - that requires some interaction on my part I would imagine, but the state itself is a valuable one in experimenting with OBEs.
Well what you are trying to do is get the brain and body in the best state to do this. Asleep isn't the best state so I would think Delta is not what you want. I would play with Alpha and Theta ranges with maybe a little delta just to deepen it for a few minutes and then back to Theta. Theta is the ideal state for this work.
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The session I described in my original post is a bit like the session I tried to put together last night on the Procyon. I've also put together a session on the Brainwave Generator using both binaurals at the same time and I wanted to mix this with Procyon's lights using SynchroMuse - but it didn't work. I may have to just create an AudioStrobe session instead and see how it goes.
You have to be the scientist here and objectively report your findings. Who knows maybe you'll come up with something really cool! After all, the route you are going is how scientists come up with their information - they have an idea, and then plan how to make it work, try stuff ... fail, try again ... fail again ...lol ...bang their heads ... modify their plan ... try again ... have some results ... tweak the program ...and so on.
:cheers:
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As I only have information on how to put together the sound side of the session, I'm trying to go with my gut for the visual side. I'm not using any form of color theory at all (if any exists for this kind of thing) and I'm just trying to have it "strobing" to the delta frequency of 4Hz. I didn't vary it during the brieft segments of alpha as I thought it might be good to have the lights at delta with the audio at alpha.
Just remember that the light part is very important because the brain entrains more easily with photic stimulation than sound.
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I actually think my session started off with a mistake as the lights started with a 4Hz flicker. It felt a bit incongruous to me probably because entrainment works better if you ramp downwards from a low beta state. I think the audio side probably suffered from the same problem. The pulse effect of the lights at 4Hz was fairly profound over time though.
You can work with dimming the lights. Red is the most energetic and blue is the most relaxing - green is pleasant in the middle. So, when you want the brain to wake up a bit, you can go with a brighter red - too bright and you may wake up and while you want to go deeper, you can activate the red and blue.
For what you are wanting to do, you can do more with the lights than with the sound - brain wave entrainment wise. For the sound, you can also add a CD. If you can get hold of the audiostrobe title: Requiem, you may find that this alone takes you out of your body.
It is a freaky (but good) experience. When I used it, I felt like I was out of my body floating somewhere in space.
M.
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
You're right - I could do more with light rather than sound. I have independent control of frequency on all colours.
I could use a more energising red light flicker at 10Hz while my blue and green are operating at 3Hz or similar.
I don't think the red would necessarily come through however because the light will mix.
However, if I program my blue and green at the lower frequency to come across as much like blue and green as possible and then introduce the red light mainly for the accelerated flickering I could probably simulate the effect James was getting at with dual binaural beats.
But I was also thinking Ganzfeld effect might be useful once the brain has slowed down a good deal from the delta or theta entrainment.
So if I use a basic red/green/blue flicker that is matching a binaural ramping from say 12 Hz to 3Hz (if I'm going for the delta), while also ramping the brightness of the red channel down until it disappears and towards the end trying to increase the level of blue in the colour, that might be a good start.
Once I'm down at the deeper level I can create a plateau of delta with a ganzfeld of blue and green with blue being the dominant color.
Then I might leave the binaural beats at delta and introduce a red flicker at 10Hz at a brightness level that needs to be determined - probably not full strength.
This can be my delta/alpha window and this should last for quite a while. I might try to modulate the brightness of the colours over that time just so that there is perceived movement throughout a window of 30 minutes while possibly leaving the audio steady.
This is a worthy experiment I feel.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Wow - this experiment was far more successful (to me).
I didn't get too much sensation of color except when I'd isolated alot of it to mainly blue, but at the same time, I think the effect I was looking for - particularly during the segment of prolonged delta by itself certainly had an effect for me.
What I seemed to noticed is a sudden shift in me at one point - wish I knew exactly where in the session that was, but at this point I suddenly felt "different", like a switch had been thrown. Most of the changes in frequencies of lights and binaural were gradually ramped so it wasn't that I had a sudden "step" from one frequency to another.
But I'm pretty sure it was when my lights had achieved the Ganzfeld effect. I did try to observe at least that. My light session ramps towards Ganzfeld.
Just talking a little astral here for those who care, but I believe I achieved basic separation at this point (similar to when you fall asleep), I think this because I sudden noise in my house sent a massive vibration through me which I would usually associate with my astral jumping back into the physical in a hurry which I believe is a self-protection type response.
When I introduced the 10Hz red flicker where the rest of lighting is at Ganzfeld and the binaural is still at 3Hz, I felt markedly different. Where before I felt heavy and surreal - I immediately felt light (in my mind anyway) and much more conscious. Like my conscious mind was filling up more space or something.
Unfortunately, because I felt too present consciously at that point, I was also too preoccupied with the same problems consciously separating as I would have with simple meditation. I think I'm creating an impediment myself to the process. This segment lasts 30 mins and I think I might now vary it so that the 10Hz flicker comes and goes and is even less bright so that I also try to hold on to that dreamlike/surreal state that I had achieved in the first section of the session.
The funny thing about this session is that although I tired of it during the ramp up to alpha and the finish of the 60 min session - so that I didn't actually finish, there were some interesting possible side effects to my sleep.
1) I had two dreams that I remembered reasonably well on waking
2) I woke up before my alarm without any other intervention for the first time in a long time - and was able to get up before the alarm. Last two days I ended up getting up 1 or 2 hours later than my alarm.
3) I actually had the energy and the lingering memory to write down both of the dreams I had for the first time that I can remember
4) I do believe I had a couple of moments of lucidity in my dreams. I do recall small moments of consciousness - but not enough to turn the dream into a lucid dream.
I think this session might be on to something so I think I will pursue it for the moment.
Now - a negative - and I might post it in a separate thread.
I'm not sure I like how the Procyon handles ramping in brightness. I might be doing it wrong, but when I reached certain levels of brightness (or dimness(?)) there was a very pronounced stepping from one level to the next.
I ramped brightness by travelling from amplitude 255 to 0 and vice versa for the red channel and I noticed the light suddenly disappearing and suddenly appearing with a pronounced difference in brightness that I wouldn't expect if this quality was supposed to be ramped over time.
As mentioned though - I will put this in a separate thread in the Procyon forum.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
I'm still working on this one, using a couple of different variations and storing all versions of the session.
So far the one I mentioned in the post above was actually the most affective. The adjustments I had planned, didn't seem to have as pronounced an effect.
I tried another variation last night that worked until I got a shock (my partner sneezed or coughed just at the wrong moment). The problem with some of these states I find is that you become extremely sensitive to sudden sounds. The shock you get is so great that it can completely interfere with the session. I lasted probably another 10 minutes before I gave up and went to sleep.
I still was able to recall my dream the following morning, but I think the result might have been better without the shock in the middle of it.
My aim is to end up with a few sessions that I can use for the same purpose so that I can rotate them. At least 1 will possibly be an AudioStrobe or SynchroMuse session so that I can experiment with things that Procyon can't do on its own, but I would like at least 2 Procyon sessions.
Once I have them finalised I will be happy to release them in case anyone else wants to try them or experiment with the settings.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
The best way to do it, which i have, is to use The NP2 from transparent corp or the Brainwave generator from i don't know who. Program all the binaural beats you want and use the audio output of your computer to send the signal to your Proteus or Procyon using the Audiostrobe signal. While programming the session add 2 independent audiostrobe tracks and put the balance on one to the right and the other to the left to control the 2 channels or the 2 different colors indepently. I use the NP2 professional and I did a couple of the Monroe focus levels from focus 10(mind awake, body asleep) to focus 21. Focus 15's my favorite...
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lightshow
The best way to do it, which i have, is to use The NP2 from transparent corp or the Brainwave generator from i don't know who. Program all the binaural beats you want and use the audio output of your computer to send the signal to your Proteus or Procyon using the Audiostrobe signal. While programming the session add 2 independent audiostrobe tracks and put the balance on one to the right and the other to the left to control the 2 channels or the 2 different colors indepently. I use the NP2 professional and I did a couple of the Monroe focus levels from focus 10(mind awake, body asleep) to focus 21. Focus 15's my favorite...
Hey Lightshow - I just bought the NP2.
It looks pretty nice.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caleb
Hey Lightshow - I just bought the NP2.
It looks pretty nice.
Regards
Caleb
You won't regret it.
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Bloody annoying trying to get AudioStrobe set up to work the way I want it to though. My god!
I hate the fact that the functioning of AudioStrobe is dependent on volume - makes it very hard to get the balance right. I can't remember having this problem with Brainwave Generator though.
I'll get the session done eventually - I've taken to only exporting 5-10 minute segments for the moment because the process of exporting 60 minutes and then burning it to MiniDisc - finding out the balance wasn't optimal and then doing it all again was killing me.
If I could get SynchroMuse to work on my Procyon I wouldn't give a shit about AudioStrobe, but as I can't - I'm stuck with AudioStrobe for the moment.
Regards
Caleb
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
About 10 years ago I used the Polysync Pro+ (UK name, aka Nova Pro+, maybe other names) that easily produced dual binaural beats, which is what "Awakened Mind I" refers to, and had a built in session based on the book.
I will give Marisa the benefit of the doubt, as it has been known for many years that many frequencies/voices (ie dual binaural beats) can have profound effects on the mind that simple binaural beats cant produce.
Many professional psyco-acoustic cds/tapes have been produced using many opposing frequencies (eg alpha + delta), like Megabrain Zones, Jefferey Thompson, Xmind, etc, etc etc, all based on research, such as measuring brainwaves of experienced meditators, and producing the recordings in the same manner.
The competitor's model produces dual binaural beats, but, it also well known that the most effect is achieved from the visuals.
So you get what you pay for, the competitor's model costs more.
Procyon is therefore focused correctly, and I intend to buy it for this purpose, ie, the visual experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marisa
Hi Caleb,
:confused1: EEK! LOL You could keep it simple and use the terms we are familiar with. :icon_wink:
:dontknow: Let's see ... I don't know a whole lot about how pitch affects the brain other than higher frequencies would be more energizing and lower frequencies more relaxing. I also think of music and there maybe something that is related to musical notes/tones and the brain. I'll have to look into this further.
Well, only one frequency (range) is usually dominant (in the brain) at a time, while the other frequency ranges are still active but in the background. If you tried to introduce Alpha and Delta, the brain may just pick one of the frequencies to entrain to or it may pick a frequency between the two (Theta). You will never have both Alpha and Delta dominant at the same time. You will not have Delta be dominant while you are awake - if Delta becomes dominant, you will likely have fallen asleep.
Perhaps the author was looking to just increase the level of either Delta or Alpha in the brain while the other frequency is dominant. What you could do to make that happen is design a Theta/Delta program and after a few minutes inject Alpha for a minute or two.
When we sleep our brain pattern goes as follows: Alpha, Theta, Delta, Theta, Alpha. Delta is deep asleep and no dreaming occurs. Dreaming only occurs in Theta or low Alpha - which is the frequencies you want to target for Lucid Dreaming and Astral work.
You could try that and see how it works.
Well what you are trying to do is get the brain and body in the best state to do this. Asleep isn't the best state so I would think Delta is not what you want. I would play with Alpha and Theta ranges with maybe a little delta just to deepen it for a few minutes and then back to Theta. Theta is the ideal state for this work.
You have to be the scientist here and objectively report your findings. Who knows maybe you'll come up with something really cool! After all, the route you are going is how scientists come up with their information - they have an idea, and then plan how to make it work, try stuff ... fail, try again ... fail again ...lol ...bang their heads ... modify their plan ... try again ... have some results ... tweak the program ...and so on.
:cheers:
Just remember that the light part is very important because the brain entrains more easily with photic stimulation than sound.
You can work with dimming the lights. Red is the most energetic and blue is the most relaxing - green is pleasant in the middle. So, when you want the brain to wake up a bit, you can go with a brighter red - too bright and you may wake up and while you want to go deeper, you can activate the red and blue.
For what you are wanting to do, you can do more with the lights than with the sound - brain wave entrainment wise. For the sound, you can also add a CD. If you can get hold of the audiostrobe title: Requiem, you may find that this alone takes you out of your body.
It is a freaky (but good) experience. When I used it, I felt like I was out of my body floating somewhere in space.
M.
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Quote:
Originally Posted by
abre87
About 10 years ago I used the Polysync Pro+ (UK name, aka Nova Pro+, maybe other names) that easily produced dual binaural beats, which is what "Awakened Mind I" refers to, and had a built in session based on the book.
I think Dual BBs were a fad back then. Mindplace even put that function capability into the Proteus. I would wager a guess that it is not in the Procyon because since then research has found that dual BBs are redundant.
"When Tom Budzynski was running SynchroMed, we tested several kinds of beats: binaural, dual binaural and monaural. The BB's were the only ones which could cause discernible EEG activation. We were surprised that dual BBS did not appear to do so .. the experiment was small, just a few people, so maybe with a larger population we would have seen something." Robert Austin (email )
Note: Budzynski is one of the leading experts in the field.
Quote:
I will give Marisa the benefit of the doubt, as it has been known for many years that many frequencies/voices (ie dual binaural beats) can have profound effects on the mind that simple binaural beats cant produce.
Wait a minute ... yes, it has been known for years that a range of frequencies (.5 Hz to 75 Hz) can have profound effects on the mind but that doesn't mean that if you expose the brain to frequencies all at the same time, that you'll get profound effects on the brain.
The reason that exposing the brain to this range of frequencies will affect the mind is because the brain can be coaxed to change which frequency becomes more pronounced or dominant.
If you expose the brain to more than one frequency at a time, as you would with dual BB's, the brain would likely entrain to either just one of the frequencies or a frequency in between the two. I haven't seen any research that supports this method as superior, so I must respectfully disagree with what you are saying.
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Many professional psyco-acoustic cds/tapes have been produced using many opposing frequencies (eg alpha + delta), like Megabrain Zones, Jefferey Thompson, Xmind, etc, etc etc, all based on research, such as measuring brainwaves of experienced meditators, and producing the recordings in the same manner.
I'd love to see this research and eat crow. :D
Is it possible that you misunderstood what you were reading? What they may be doing is interjecting a different frequency into a session for a short amount of time, in order to stimulate the brain or prevent habitation. So for example, in a deep meditation program (mostly theta), you would interject a few seconds of Beta to stimulate the brain and then let it go back to Theta.
We do a similar thing in hypnosis, we coax the person into a trance state by slowing down our speech and every now and then we speed up the rate of speech to bring them out of the trance a bit and then slow it back down.
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The competitor's model produces dual binaural beats, but, it also well known that the most effect is achieved from the visuals.
You mean to say that photic stimulation produces better results than just sound. Yes?
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So you get what you pay for, the competitor's model costs more.
Oh I don't know about that. :eusa_think: The Proteus is capable of Dual BB's and yet it's very inexpensive and extremely well made. We have proven that you can get a good mind machine that does exactly what it's suppose to (brain wave entrainment) at a reasonable price.
The Procyon is more "high end" than the Proteus because it has upgraded the technology in it's components (digital instead of analog, more capacity for programs, Ganzfeld capability, higher frequency capability and ability to produce more shades of color).
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Procyon is therefore focused correctly, and I intend to buy it for this purpose, ie, the visual experience.
Ah, but if dual BB's are really important to you, then perhaps you want to buy a Proteus and add programs containing dual BB's? It all depends on what you want in a machine, as both machines will do the required job - it comes down to what features are important to you.
Re: Body asleep, mind awake state
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caleb
Hey Lightshow - I just bought the NP2.
It looks pretty nice.
Regards
Caleb
FYI - the new OS released for the Procyon is has a new AS mode that works better with NP2.
-Andy.
