Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Hi,
I have spent only about an hour or two doing procyon sessions. I am an experienced meditator interested in checking this thing out.
I have used binaural beats audio before and feel like it probably did effect me. I think the procyon does effect me a little too. Not sure how but it must just a little.
But it's certainly not like, wow, this is really doing cool things. Not enough that I can be sure anything is happening at all. I am photosensitive and also believe that flashing too bright light on the retina will eventually and slowly lead to macular degeneration and blindness in old age, which my father has. So I dont crank the lights up super high. Even at the level I have them, the area around my eyes feels strained physically, and I guess I could say the main effect I feel from the procyon in general is the induction of a mild state of irritation and tension.
I wonder if anyone can give me any advice. What programs are good, most effective, etc.?
Thanks,
Kamo
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kamo
Hi,
I have spent only about an hour or two doing procyon sessions. I am an experienced meditator interested in checking this thing out.
I have used binaural beats audio before and feel like it probably did effect me. I think the procyon does effect me a little too. Not sure how but it must just a little.
But it's certainly not like, wow, this is really doing cool things. Not enough that I can be sure anything is happening at all. I am photosensitive and also believe that flashing too bright light on the retina will eventually and slowly lead to macular degeneration and blindness in old age, which my father has. So I dont crank the lights up super high. Even at the level I have them, the area around my eyes feels strained physically, and I guess I could say the main effect I feel from the procyon in general is the induction of a mild state of irritation and tension.
I wonder if anyone can give me any advice. What programs are good, most effective, etc.?
Thanks,
Kamo
Hi Kamo,
Just relax and take it easy. Although you're an experienced meditator, this is quite different, and you'll need to find new ways to approach the sessions.
"Most effective" depends on what you're wanting to achieve.
Probably the most important thing to keep in mind is that AVS is a support for natural mental processes - unlike pharmaceuticals, it is subtle and easy overpowered by other thoughts or actions.
I have considered the eye-safety aspect, and I'm satisfied that the Procyon is completely safe with eyes closed, and unlikey to cause harm even with eyes open. Blue light has been associated with macular degeneration, but the output of the LEDs is relatively low, even though it can seem bright.
I use the technique "hearing without listening, seeing without looking" for best results. I let my eyes relax and focus at infinity - I don't "try" to look at the patterns, I just let them be.
Hope this helps a bit. Let us know what you're hoping for and maybe we can can up with a few more specific suggestions.
Cheers,
Craig
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Hi Kamo,
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kamo
Hi,
I have spent only about an hour or two doing procyon sessions. I am an experienced meditator interested in checking this thing out.
I have used binaural beats audio before and feel like it probably did effect me. I think the procyon does effect me a little too. Not sure how but it must just a little.
But it's certainly not like, wow, this is really doing cool things. Not enough that I can be sure anything is happening at all.
Essentially what an AVS machine endeavors to do is to coax your brainwaves into a desired state. Sometimes our brain waves may get to that state but the effect is brief, sometimes it lasts longer.
Some effects are more subtle and take place over a longer period of time. For myself, when I was working to improve my concentration, I didn't feel any different after the session. I don't know if it was a few days later or a week later but at one point I realized that the TV was on in the background while I was reading and that I had no idea what show was on. This meant that I was able to concentrate on what I was reading and not be distracted by the TV (which in the past I was).
The dramatic "oh wow" effect of AVS may have more to do with a person enjoying the visual effects. Some people, such as myself, really get into watching the lights and patterns and experience moments of euphoria while doing this. To others, perhaps it's not all that thrilling. It's an individual thing. The good news is, you don't have to be "wowed" to get something out of the session.
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I am photosensitive and also believe that flashing too bright light on the retina will eventually and slowly lead to macular degeneration and blindness in old age, which my father has. So I dont crank the lights up super high. Even at the level I have them, the area around my eyes feels strained physically, and I guess I could say the main effect I feel from the procyon in general is the induction of a mild state of irritation and tension.
I would like to assure you that the LEDS in a Procyon are not bright enough to cause any eye problems. Your eyelids are closed during the session which also should prevent you from eye strain.
You certainly want to come away from the session feeling better than when you started.
The irritation and tension could be due to the photo-sensitivity. It could be due to using a program that is more stimulating than relaxing. It could be due to something else .... like frustration from unmet expectations.
Maybe you want to try some shorter sessions until you get use to the machine?
Quote:
I wonder if anyone can give me any advice. What programs are good, most effective, etc.?
What is your goal? Answering that question will help me figure out which programs to suggest for you.
M.
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
I am not sure it is possible to assure anyone of the dangers of long term use in regard to macular degeneration. How can you know? How many long term users have been studied over decades? In the short term, it might be possible to compare light exposure to typical daily activities. Is there any study that can estimate the amount of light delivered through the eyelids and onto the retina? That would be the only way to assure anyone that it is "a small amount of light"
What I am going for is, first of all, any sense that there is an effect from the device at all. Secondly, any kind of pleasant or calming mind state or interesting mental arousal. The fact that I do feel some energetic tension (that is not caused by frustrated expectations) is proof I suppose that the device does do something.
So I guess what I would want to know is if anyone has had the same experience as me, or perhaps someone knows some programs that are easier to work with than others, or more likely to lend calmness or pleasant experiences in the mind.
Thanks!
Kamo
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Hello Kamo;
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kamo
I am not sure it is possible to assure anyone of the dangers of long term use in regard to macular degeneration. How can you know? How many long term users have been studied over decades? In the short term, it might be possible to compare light exposure to typical daily activities. Is there any study that can estimate the amount of light delivered through the eyelids and onto the retina? That would be the only way to assure anyone that it is "a small amount of light"
We receive light at all times in a lighted room or from the sun. So pretty much as long as one is awake, one's eyes are receiving light. The AVS machines produce light as well, only that it's flashing. I really don't see how this could ever harm someone, ESPECIALLY when done in moderation and at a comfortable level.
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What I am going for is, first of all, any sense that there is an effect from the device at all. Secondly, any kind of pleasant or calming mind state or interesting mental arousal. The fact that I do feel some energetic tension (that is not caused by frustrated expectations) is proof I suppose that the device does do something.
Please take a moment to re-read the excellent advice given by Craig and Marisa. Your experience is unlike anyone else we have ever heard from, so it seems like you're perhaps not giving it a chance. Relax, read the above suggestions again, try some of the calming programs and see if it helps you feel better or differently. Take some time to get used to how it works, get the settings to a comfortable level and RELAX. I'm not as experienced as Marisa and Craig on these devices, but it only makes sense that if you don't open up and let it do it's thing, it just won't work. I can't be hypnotized because I won't allow it to happen. I think that these devices work the same way. You need to allow it to do it's magic.
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So I guess what I would want to know is if anyone has had the same experience as me, or perhaps someone knows some programs that are easier to work with than others, or more likely to lend calmness or pleasant experiences in the mind.
Thanks!
Kamo
Please don't be in too much of a rush. There's some great reading on this forum - many have suggested sessions that work well for them, but each person has their own favourites.
A good starting post is here: http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...=4819#post4819
Also, familiarize yourself with the technology. Have a read through some of the great articles and look at the custom-made sessions here: http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...splay.php?f=13
Knowledge is power. Please give the technology a chance, and I'm sure in no time you'll find what works well for you.
-Andy.
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Thanks. I will look into those threads, perhaps they have the specific advice I was asking about. Maybe people ask these things all the time (for instance, about suggested programs to try first), so one gets tired of giving the same answers all the time. I know how it is on message boards and all.
That being said, last night I turned the volume down and bit the bullet and cranked the light up (guessing maybe half way), and then "whoh." I wont say "wow!" but only because I have seen some amazing things in meditation and this is pale in comparison, but if I had never meditated before I would definitely say "wow!" I think I was in program 21, which annoyed me before, and the light show was really intense and trippy, when red lights came on I was flooded in a wash of color that blotted almost everything out. Lots of other things. Although I was not originally interested in trippy effects now that I see them they are interesting to me, and going with them did produce changes in mind state such as I was hoping to see from the device. These changes were more palpable than from binaural beats alone, to be sure. They were less intense and-- it is hard to describe-- less thorough in my being than an hour of successful meditation, but hey an hour of successful meditation is not nearly as easy as pressing a button, so what do you expect.
I also did an hour "night journey" initially skeptical that one could feel sleepy with lights blasting in your eyes and flying saucers in your ears. However, I did drift in and out of sleep and dream during the program, again proving that it works.
The similarity to meditative visions is uncanny. Meditative images are somehow deeper and involve your whole being on a more thorough level, but they look kind of like the light show when it gets trippy. Washes of color, washes of particles, this sort of layer of visual film, it looks just like that. Not the same, but its like the device produces a replica of them the way a drawing is similar to but not the same as the real thing. I find this absolutely fascinating and well worth exploring more. For instance: can the two kinds of things be brought closer into line?
I think my initial non-success was due to a. not having the light up high enough, and b. being accustomed to meditation and actively shaping my experience rather than passively accepting the influence from the device. Its not, I assure you, anything to due with relaxation.
I will continue to experiment a while, and then probably I will attach the glasses to blue light blocking glasses, because my father is nearly blind and that is not to be taken lightly or a danger to be dismissed by casual speculation. I think it will detract from the color considerably and the color and trippiness does, at my early stage of use here, seem to be crucial to the effects.
Unfortunately "I don't really see" how it could cause damage to the eyes is not any REAL assurance that it does not. Just because you dont think that it does, does not mean it doesnt. For instance, sunlight causes damage to the eyes. You might not see how it does, but it does. LED lights, which can be much richer in blue light than sunlight, when shined right in front of the eyes, what is the effect of that over the long term? The eyelid, I am guessing, works at least partially as a blue light blocker, because there is some orange in the way we perceive light with eyes closed. But how much it helps is impossible for me to guess.
Anyway, I definitely take it back when I said, what's this all about...
KAmo
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Hi Kamo,
Great to hear you're finding YOUR way with AVS! Given time you'll be able to merge your meditation experience with the AVS sessions and go to completely new places innaccessible by either on their own.
My favourite sessions are creative visualisation - they provide an amazing way to delve into the corners of your recollections and build new ideas.
I've been using AVS intensively for a couple of years now (and I really mean intensively!) During that time I have had two complete eye test and discussed the technology with my optometrist. There is no indication of degradation of my optical structures, and he has expressed no concern about the lights. I suspect you'll find you're exposed to a lot more harmful light looking at a TV or computer monitor. One of the joys of LED light is that it is monochromatic - a blue LED emits single wavelength blue visible light without the considerable ultraviolet that goes with most blue/white light. Some LEDs do emit some near UV light as they use a near UV LED to excite a fluorescent coating to provide that actual visible light - these are apparently quite safe too. The LEDs in MindPlace glasses are standard (non-fluoro) LEDs.
Happy exploring!
Cheers,
Craig
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Hi Kamo,
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kamo
Thanks. I will look into those threads, perhaps they have the specific advice I was asking about. Maybe people ask these things all the time (for instance, about suggested programs to try first), so one gets tired of giving the same answers all the time. I know how it is on message boards and all.
One of my favorites is #17 - Regeneration. I like this program when I am tired and need to, well, regenerate. ;)
I wrote an Alpha program, which I also use quite frequently and I use this to stimulate my mind, get it more active. I tend to have too much Theta dominant and so I benefit from Alpha/SMR programs (at least during the day time). The Alpha program can be downloaded from the Sessions area of the forum (if you are interested).
Quote:
That being said, last night I turned the volume down and bit the bullet and cranked the light up (guessing maybe half way), and then "whoh." I wont say "wow!" but only because I have seen some amazing things in meditation and this is pale in comparison, but if I had never meditated before I would definitely say "wow!" I think I was in program 21, which annoyed me before, and the light show was really intense and trippy, when red lights came on I was flooded in a wash of color that blotted almost everything out. Lots of other things. Although I was not originally interested in trippy effects now that I see them they are interesting to me, and going with them did produce changes in mind state such as I was hoping to see from the device. These changes were more palpable than from binaural beats alone, to be sure. They were less intense and-- it is hard to describe-- less thorough in my being than an hour of successful meditation, but hey an hour of successful meditation is not nearly as easy as pressing a button, so what do you expect.
Okay, if you want trippy - find your favorite music and plug your head phones into that and then select P 46 - 49. :headbang:
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I also did an hour "night journey" initially skeptical that one could feel sleepy with lights blasting in your eyes and flying saucers in your ears. However, I did drift in and out of sleep and dream during the program, again proving that it works.
I have yet to remain awake during one of those programs. Some nights it takes longer to fall asleep than others but it always happens. Now for the light frames and headphones to take themselves off my head ...
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I will continue to experiment a while, and then probably I will attach the glasses to blue light blocking glasses, because my father is nearly blind and that is not to be taken lightly or a danger to be dismissed by casual speculation. I think it will detract from the color considerably and the color and trippiness does, at my early stage of use here, seem to be crucial to the effects.
You can go into the editor and turn off the blue leds in your programs.
I can appreciate your wanting to be cautious, especially after seeing your father go through something like MG.
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Unfortunately "I don't really see" how it could cause damage to the eyes is not any REAL assurance that it does not. Just because you dont think that it does, does not mean it doesnt. For instance, sunlight causes damage to the eyes. You might not see how it does, but it does. LED lights, which can be much richer in blue light than sunlight, when shined right in front of the eyes, what is the effect of that over the long term? The eyelid, I am guessing, works at least partially as a blue light blocker, because there is some orange in the way we perceive light with eyes closed. But how much it helps is impossible for me to guess.
From what I read, the problem was with bright blue light used in some forms of light therapy and it was used during the night when melatonin levels were high and the eyes' natural defenses were low. Also these lights were used with open, not closed eyes.
Still, if you are concerned about the blue lights on our light-frames, the nice thing about the Procyon is that you can turn them off.
These machines have been around for 20+ years and there hasn't been any reported cases of any of them (regardless of brand) causing eye problems. Mind you, the use of LEDS in AVS machines does not go back 20 years.
I think that you bring up a relevant point that people who have photosensitivity or a predisposition to eye problems may have to be more careful of light intensity and it wouldn't hurt for them to check with their eye doctor before using an AVS machine.
M.
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
If you're after reccomendations. Session 2 consistently makes me feel something in the middle of my forehead, and it's not too long.
Session 14 (Mind Sauna) I'd overlooked, I've had this device for a month or so and can't remember trying it. I tried recently and was impressed with the visuals. I felt engaged with the session in a way I hadn't previously.
All the Night Voyage sessions make me sleepy, I might be awake at the end of the session but only to take off the headphoes and glasses and go to sleep.
The visualisation (40-45) are good if you want to be left to your own thoughts.
Anyway I'd be interested in your thoughts on session 2 and 14.
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
I checked out those sessions 2 and 14. I didn't particularly notice anything that stood out in relation to other sessions. But, just one try doesn't say much.
I didn't notice any particular usefulness of 14 for deep breathing or whatever it says. I wonder if the text in the charts about the various programs are just wild guesses. Perhaps based on some study read here or there about a particular frequency, or whatever. I am interested in continuing to test program 14 on this count. However, I think I like a more straightforward approach like the proteus seemed to have about entraining particular wavelengths. I will have to go into the procyon programming to get a more straightforward approach.
On the other hand, there may be uncertain advantages to the various highly variable programs shifting frequencies, colors, tones. There may be no small benefit to variety and engagement that the showiness of these programs provide (or not) They may be fairly random guesses by the makers, but some might be lucky guesses. Also, different users are different so a lucky match might happen.
But for more stable experimentation, I will need to make my own programs that hold frequency color and tone stable.
Currently, I am using the night voyage sessions in the daytime, in seated crosslegged position in the day. They do not make me sleepy but do seem to contribute a calming effect which is useful in meditation. I am used to staying awake in the midst of most kinds of experience so this might explain why sleepiness is not an issue using these sessions in an awake mode.
I also have used them to transition to sleep at night and found them effective for that too. Like you, I dont flat out sleep during the sessions however.
best wishes,
Kamo
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kamo
I checked out those sessions 2 and 14. I didn't particularly notice anything that stood out in relation to other sessions. But, just one try doesn't say much.
I didn't notice any particular usefulness of 14 for deep breathing or whatever it says. I wonder if the text in the charts about the various programs are just wild guesses. Perhaps based on some study read here or there about a particular frequency, or whatever. I am interested in continuing to test program 14 on this count. However, I think I like a more straightforward approach like the Proteus seemed to have about entraining particular wavelengths. I will have to go into the Procyon programming to get a more straightforward approach.
Actually, I went through each segment in the program looked at the frequency ranges and which frequency was most dominant. This in turn gives us the target frequency. So - no wild guesses.
I'm not sure what you are expecting to get out of a session. If you are too busy trying to analyze the session while it's happening, you are likely to miss out on the purpose of the session ... which would be relaxation.
P14 is a program that is relaxing and regenerating. I find that if I'm feeling fatigued and use this program, mental energy is restored.
The only way you'll know for absolute certainty what the programs are doing for you, if anything at all, is to use an EEG as well. Some people respond better to AVS than others. Because it lacks the EEG aspect, it's not an exact science ... more of a guideline.
Even with the EEG it's still not exact because while, let's say 10 Hz may work really well in bringing Alpha to the forefront for one person, 12 Hz may work better for another.
Another factor is habituation. We need the programs to have some range in them to avoid habituation - which is the brain getting use to one frequency and then basically ignoring it.
Finally, there is the aspect where the person may reach the desired state (i.e. Alpha dominance) but may not stay in that state for more than a few seconds. In a case such as this, the person may not notice any results after one or two uses but perhaps after 10 or 12.
Since we are working with brain waves, many things can change them and one will get best results by doing things that are congruent to the desired state. For example, allowing your body to relax during a session. Letting your mind relax and push away analytical thoughts. There is a time and place for analytical thoughts but not during a session.
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On the other hand, there may be uncertain advantages to the various highly variable programs shifting frequencies, colors, tones. There may be no small benefit to variety and engagement that the showiness of these programs provide (or not) They may be fairly random guesses by the makers, but some might be lucky guesses. Also, different users are different so a lucky match might happen.
Actually the programs are quite well thought out. You want the frequencies to shift (for reasons explained above) and you also want to keep the brain from getting bored, though I suppose in a sleep program ... this may not be so bad.
You appear to be approaching the use of the machine with a critical attitude which I find a bit confusing since you still have your machine and are continuing to use it and at times seem to enjoy it. I would think that if you really aren't finding any benefit from the machine, you would just take it back and be done with it. Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding you and this is just your way of getting to know the machine and the technology? :dontknow:
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But for more stable experimentation, I will need to make my own programs that hold frequency color and tone stable.
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I think you are putting the cart before the horse. It may be helpful for you to first learn a bit more about how this technology works and how brain waves work. This would really help you to develop more meaningful experiments and if you are serious about experimenting - you would probably benefit from owing an EEG machine.
A "stable" tone would only give you results for a very small time and you wouldn't really know for sure unless you also used an EEG. Some changes can occur and you not notice it because they are subtle. Sometimes they are fleeting.
Color has some impact but it's not as important as the actual frequencies themselves. Also, keep in mind that when two colors are mixed together a third color is the result - for example, green + red = amber. Red + blue + green = white (usually).
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Currently, I am using the night voyage sessions in the daytime, in seated crosslegged position in the day. They do not make me sleepy but do seem to contribute a calming effect which is useful in meditation. I am used to staying awake in the midst of most kinds of experience so this might explain why sleepiness is not an issue using these sessions in an awake mode.
Brain waves are funny things. Some people's brains are wired differently and what affects the mainstream one way, will affect them another way. Take ADHD brains, for example, stimulation (SMR/Beta) relaxes them and helps them focus where as someone with an anxiety disorder - Beta would irritate them.
M.
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
"Actually, I went through each segment in the program looked at the frequency ranges and which frequency was most dominant. This in turn gives us the target frequency. So - no wild guesses. "
If you look closely at what I said I was referring to the TEXT describing the effects of sessions. So if it says "good for deep breathing and muscle relaxation" (i dont have the chart in front of me) this may or may not be a guess. The dominant frequencies might be associated with certain bodily functions in some studies that might be motivating the descriptive text, or it might just be a wild guess. We have no way of knowing. Even if there is some study, it is a far cry from a study to an established causal relation between a certain brain frequency and and a certain effect. I would think most people who look into eeg and brainwave entrainment would come to the same conclusion, but some are very faithful and eager. Nothing wrong with that if you get the most effects that way and you dont ask questions or study too deeply into the science.
"If you are too busy trying to analyze the session while it's happening, you are likely to miss out on the purpose of the session ... which would be relaxation."
Just because someone is thinking about this while posting on a message board does not mean anything one way or another while using the machine. I do not write on the message board while using the machine, mostly because I cant be sure about my spelling while wearing the ganzframes.
"The only way you'll know for absolute certainty what the programs are doing for you, if anything at all, is to use an EEG as well."
That is not true at all. A thorough education in brain science will for most people, as noted above, show that not a lot is certain about what brainwaves mean. I do know the science and have an "EEG machine," as you put it.
"Even with the EEG it's still not exact because while, let's say 10 Hz may work really well in bringing Alpha to the forefront for one person, 12 Hz may work better for another."
oops, maybe you realize this.
"Another factor is habituation. We need the programs to have some range in them to avoid habituation - which is the brain getting use to one frequency and then basically ignoring it."
this is exactly what I was saying about various colors and transitions in the programs. They are all way too complex to make any assumptions about other than the variety itself may be of benefit in keeping the mind interested. Perhaps my way of writing is not clear or something.
"You appear to be approaching the use of the machine with a critical attitude which I find a bit confusing since you still have your machine and are continuing to use it and at times seem to enjoy it. I would think that if you really aren't finding any benefit from the machine, you would just take it back and be done with it. Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding you and this is just your way of getting to know the machine and the technology? :dontknow: "
Yes, I dont see any contradiction between analyzing and thinking about this and using it. I have many years experience studying my mind and am facile enough to use it for many things. Sometimes I think, sometimes I dream, sometimes I relax. I can use my mind for many things. To me, a critical attitude is a good thing, but I suppose not everyone believes this. Still, I expect some of your users are interested in science and they also like to investigate. Investigation can lead to a more solid and stable faith than faith alone. That is the value my type puts in it, but not everyone has tried that approach out so they dont know how it works. however I have noticed other posters on your forum who have obviously investigated your device with a critical attitude and continue to be enthusiastic about it.
To me, the only way to know for sure about an effect is through personal experience, not eeg readings. EEG measurements can be a reference point, but of no greater value than asking another user what they are experiencing, which is precisely what we were doing. Perhaps we are to accept the written descriptions on the manual chart as definitive, but I dont really think they are, and some of them, like "good for deep breathing" etc. seem to me to be wild guesses. Seem to be. I would be happy to know if there is any scientific basis for these descriptions. I would also be happy to know of peoples' personal experiences. This information can be of limited value with navigating this machine and its programs, at least equal to the textual descriptions of what the programs are officially supposed to be for.
thanks,
Kamo
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kamo
If you look closely at what I said I was referring to the TEXT describing the effects of sessions. So if it says "good for deep breathing and muscle relaxation" (i dont have the chart in front of me) this may or may not be a guess. The dominant frequencies might be associated with certain bodily functions in some studies that might be motivating the descriptive text, or it might just be a wild guess. We have no way of knowing.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. The manual says, regarding P14: "Ideal for use with deep breathing and muscle awareness exercises." The manual is just making a suggestion for what one may want to do with this program since the program is relaxing and deep breathing also helps with relaxation ...
You are correct, there is no particular brainwave frequency that causes deep breathing, though the act of deep breathing itself may correlate to a particular state of mind and set of frequencies.
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Even if there is some study, it is a far cry from a study to an established causal relation between a certain brain frequency and and a certain effect.
There have been studies that take notice of what someones EEG is while they are in various states. Sleep studies, for example, have made correlations between the various stages of sleep and group of frequencies. It's not going to be a specific frequency, it will be in one of the ranges (Alpha, SMR etc.). Other studies conducted have provided us with information regarding what each of the groups of frequencies correlate to what states of mind. These references you'll find in a variety of places and text books.
If a study mentions a particular frequency, which some have, it is just a reporting of what results they got on that particular day with those particular subjects. It's relevant in that the results correlated within a range and this gives us a lot of useful information on states of mind and brainwave frequencies. If one was to replicate the study, they would probably get similar results within the range of frequencies (Alpha, Beta etc.) instead of a specific frequency.
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I would think most people who look into eeg and brainwave entrainment would come to the same conclusion, but some are very faithful and eager. Nothing wrong with that if you get the most effects that way and you dont ask questions or study too deeply into the science.
I haven't come across any legitimate independent studies that do this. I've seen "studies" make some interesting and sometimes questionable claims. Those would fall under pseudoscience and they appear legitimate because there are bits of truth in their claims or their claims or based on bits of truth.
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"If you are too busy trying to analyze the session while it's happening, you are likely to miss out on the purpose of the session ... which would be relaxation."
Just because someone is thinking about this while posting on a message board does not mean anything one way or another while using the machine. I do not write on the message board while using the machine, mostly because I cant be sure about my spelling while wearing the ganzframes.
LOL Ya, that would be a bit bone-headed wouldn't it. lol When you mentioned that you weren't getting anything out of the sessions you listed. I was under the impression that you were analyzing the sessions and what was happening to you during that session, which could create the results or lack of results you got. If you are experiencing the session and afterward analyzing it, then I would look for other reasons, which may very well end up that those particular sessions just don't work for you.
What may be interesting to look at is if a group of sessions didn't have any effect on you. For example, if all the Alpha/Theta sessions left you in the same state in which you were when you entered the session. That may be a bit difficult to determine but it would be interesting nevertheless. It may very well be that you don't get results after the first few sessions but begin to with subsequent sessions. It's kind of like when you first go to the gym, you may not notice a difference in your body after one work out or even five but after ten you start noticing a difference.
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"The only way you'll know for absolute certainty what the programs are doing for you, if anything at all, is to use an EEG as well."
That is not true at all. A thorough education in brain science will for most people, as noted above, show that not a lot is certain about what brainwaves mean. I do know the science and have an "EEG machine," as you put it.
I did say "absolute" certainty. Just to be clear, we are not talking about what brainwaves mean, we are talking about correlations between brainwaves and various groups of frequencies. Changing those frequencies and making one group more dominant than the other and staying there - ah, now there is where things get a bit more fuzzy because many things can cause brainwaves to change. AVS is a tool that can cause a change in state of mind and subsequent brainwave activity. The key word here is that it's only a tool, not an equation.
P.S. I'm glad you have an EEG. I look forward to hearing more about what you are discovering about yourself and AVS.
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"Even with the EEG it's still not exact because while, let's say 10 Hz may work really well in bringing Alpha to the forefront for one person, 12 Hz may work better for another."
oops, maybe you realize this.
LOL oops, maybe I do. :p
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"Another factor is habituation. We need the programs to have some range in them to avoid habituation - which is the brain getting use to one frequency and then basically ignoring it."
this is exactly what I was saying about various colors and transitions in the programs. They are all way too complex to make any assumptions about other than the variety itself may be of benefit in keeping the mind interested. Perhaps my way of writing is not clear or something.
It's the frequencies that matter most, color and transitions are there for other reasons such as mentioned above.
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Yes, I dont see any contradiction
Sorry, this sentence just made me laugh. You can see where it is funny considering the context don't you? Okay, back to the conversation.
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between analyzing and thinking about this and using it. I have many years experience studying my mind and am facile enough to use it for many things.
The contradiction is/was in your attitude. Sometimes you talk as if you think the machine is crap and sometimes you talk as if you actually like the machine. While it may be analytical, it's biased by your attitude. There is a difference between analytical and critical. Critical is biased, analytical isn't.
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Sometimes I think, sometimes I dream, sometimes I relax. I can use my mind for many things. To me, a critical attitude is a good thing, but I suppose not everyone believes this.
I appreciate a good, analytical mind. :cheers:
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Still, I expect some of your users are interested in science and they also like to investigate. Investigation can lead to a more solid and stable faith than faith alone. That is the value my type puts in it, but not everyone has tried that approach out so they dont know how it works. however I have noticed other posters on your forum who have obviously investigated your device with a critical attitude and continue to be enthusiastic about it.
I see value in what you bring to the forum. No question there.
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To me, the only way to know for sure about an effect is through personal experience, not eeg readings. EEG measurements can be a reference point, but of no greater value than asking another user what they are experiencing, which is precisely what we were doing.
That's true but it isn't research, it's personal exploration. I misunderstood, I though you were interested in conducting research. I now see that this is more about your journey and your experience with AVS. That you are looking at the programs and are experimenting on what works and doesn't work for you. It's important and relevant - maybe more-so now.
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Perhaps we are to accept the written descriptions on the manual chart as definitive, but I dont really think they are, and some of them, like "good for deep breathing" etc. seem to me to be wild guesses.
It's just a guideline. That's all.
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Seem to be. I would be happy to know if there is any scientific basis for these descriptions. I would also be happy to know of peoples' personal experiences. This information can be of limited value with navigating this machine and its programs, at least equal to the textual descriptions of what the programs are officially supposed to be for.
I'm not sure I understand what scientific basis you are looking for? I'm sure you've seen the information that correlates the groups of frequencies to various states and subsequent bodily functions. Since experience is subjective, I don't see how a specific description could be written that applies to everyone. I can see a general description, like a sign at the beginning of a path that lets you know the general direction of your journey but what you see along that journey, how you feel and what you experience is going to be somewhat unique.
Anything that involves perception is always, always going to be subjective.
M.
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
I think the problem is we don't speak the same language. The definition of "critical" is just the tip of the iceberg on that. While you seem to get some of what I am saying there seem to be just as many departures in your latest message that any attempt to clear it up will just cause more confusion. So it's not working out so well. I am both scientifically and personally interested in AVS and that probably contributes to the confusion.
So, just to be clear on one thing that seems to be troubling you: I like the procyon very much and except the first use only I have seen very palpable effects on most sessions, enough to over-ride, in my mind, any variables that apply from session to session. Which proves to me that there are significant effects. Although I can't know how other people are using it, I use it in a way that is partly like meditation. I found the first time that my habitual way of meditating had to alter to become more passive, but after that here is a highlight of some effects.
1. Periods of calm after effects
2. Occasionally shifting during sessions into a dreamlike, meditation-like vision state that was awash in color, and one time even became an experience of moving through deep space with curtains of stardust passing by that was very beautiful, like meditation visions.
3. Calm and sleepiness and drowsing in the sleep programs while prone.
4. For a couple days I used the machine's alpha-theta range programs for 2-3 hours a day or more and had lasting effects throughout the day, ease in the body, and ease in staying present with my experience. In yoga class, the janitor had to practically sweep me off the floor I was so still on the floor at the end of class.
There is more I forget, and I expect this list to go on in the future, but of course people should understand that these are a description of just the peaks.
all the best,
Kamo
Re: Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions
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Originally Posted by
Kamo
I think the problem is we don't speak the same language. The definition of "critical" is just the tip of the iceberg on that. While you seem to get some of what I am saying there seem to be just as many departures in your latest message that any attempt to clear it up will just cause more confusion. So it's not working out so well.
Alrighty then. I'll politely step out of this conversation.
:headbang: Peace out.
M.
