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Thread: Is BWE Habit forming.

  1. Default Is BWE Habit forming.

    I was wondering if there is any information or research on whether or not BWE is habit forming (can't find it in the forums).

    What I was wondering is if, for example, a person used the machine for mild insomnia and found it to be good, would if form a habit so that the person may ulitmately not be able to sleep without it?

    I imagine you could overcome it with an hypnotic suggestion, but without?

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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Hi,

    AV stimulation, of itself, is not addictive.

    One of the results of attaining certain brainwave states, however, is the release of various neurotransmitters, two of which, seratonin and dopamine, are particularly associated with feeling good and the pleasure/reward response. In a person who is naturally low in these (such as a person with depression) it is possible that they may become "addicted" to feeling "better".

    AVS is also quite a compelling experience for some (like myself) who really enjoy exploring the depths of perception and cognition and can result in disproportionate amounts of time spent wired up.

    As for sleep, if a person has trouble sleeping and they are helped by AVS, then it may be that they will continue to benefit from AVS. It may well be that when AVS is withdrawn they will, indeed, have difficulty sleeping again. AVS is cumulative - the changes to bloodflow and the general plasticity of the brain do become persistent - so for some, the need for AVS may diminish. Also, sleep difficulty can itself become a pattern and a few good nights sleep may be all that's required to get things working nicely on their own.

    Cheers,
    Craig

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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Hello Lucifer,

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    I was wondering if there is any information or research on whether or not BWE is habit forming (can't find it in the forums).
    Yes, it is habit forming but not in the same way as addiction. Addiction is based on the belief that you need an "illusionary" something in order to function. Anything that you actually **need** to function like air, water and food are necessary to function but they would not be considered an addictive substance or act.

    With BWE, our brains already produce frequencies, so the machine isn't creating the frequencies it is merely pointing the frequencies in a different direction. BWE is a method used to help train the brain to use more or less of a group of frequencies at certain times that coincide with the body's natural rhythms such as theta/delta and sleep. Other states of mind also correspond with groups of rhythms but sometimes, the brain (for many reasons) favors a group of frequencies and tends to stay there too long, causing other problems. For example, people with ADD tend to have Theta as a dominant frequency and that creates a concentration problem and so Beta/SMR (which is the "right" frequency for awake and thinking) is encouraged to become stronger through training (entrainment).

    What I was wondering is if, for example, a person used the machine for mild insomnia and found it to be good, would if form a habit so that the person may ultimately not be able to sleep without it?
    Belief can create an "addiction" of sorts in that if a person believes that s/he can not sleep without the machine, then they may not be able to sleep without the machine. It isn't the machine that caused the problem, it was the person's belief.

    I imagine you could overcome it with an hypnotic suggestion, but without?
    That's one way and the other way is to avoid setting up that belief in the first place. By asking questions, like you are doing, and learning a bit about how the brain works and why you gain understanding over the tools of change - which then work for you according to your will.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigT View Post
    Hi,

    One of the results of attaining certain brainwave states, however, is the release of various neurotransmitters, two of which, seratonin and dopamine, are particularly associated with feeling good and the pleasure/reward response. In a person who is naturally low in these (such as a person with depression) it is possible that they may become "addicted" to feeling "better".
    Just to clarify - when serotonin is high, dopamine is lowered. High dopamine sets off feelings of desire & raised serotonin sets off signals of satisfaction. For example, when your body is in need of refueling, your dopamine levels rise which creates a feeling of hunger. You start thinking about food and that thought almost consumes you as it's all you think about is how hungry you are and how good (pick a food) would taste. Once you eat, your serotonin levels rise and so does your feeling of satisfaction (you no longer feel hungry) and your dopamine levels lower.

    AVS, in particular, an Alpha state (8-11hz) is the state where serotonin is released. That being the case, dopamine would be surpressed.

    What happens in an addiction is your brain makes a mistake about the importance to survival linked with a substance. So your dopamine levels rise inappropriately signaling that you need something. That is why antidepressants (SSRIs) work well with addiction recovery is because they help raise the level of serotonin, that also helps lower the dopamine and so cravings will not be as bad. The next thing that happens in a good addiction recovery program is that you work on changing that faulty program in your brain and that is by understanding the biology of addiction as well as the psychology of belief and dysfunctional and functional behavior.
    Last edited by Marisa; 06-23-2009 at 02:14 AM. Reason: typo
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Just thought I'd toss in this quote from Wikipedia...

    "Dopamine is commonly associated with the pleasure system of the brain, providing feelings of enjoyment and reinforcement to motivate a person proactively to perform certain activities. Dopamine is released (particularly in areas such as the nucleus accumbens and prefrontal cortex) by naturally rewarding experiences such as food, sex, drugs, and neutral stimuli that become associated with them. Recent studies indicate that aggression may also stimulate the release of dopamine in this way. This theory is often discussed in terms of drugs such as cocaine, nicotine, and amphetamines, which directly or indirectly lead to an increase of dopamine in the mesolimbic reward pathway of the brain, and in relation to neurobiological theories of chemical addiction, arguing that this dopamine pathway is pathologically altered in addicted persons."

    Which covers the reasons I mentioned dopamine in my earlier post.

    Cheers,
    Craig

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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigT View Post
    Just thought I'd toss in this quote from Wikipedia...

    Which covers the reasons I mentioned dopamine in my earlier post.

    Cheers,
    Craig
    It is an important factor in addictions and it is related to serotonin, which was why I thought you mentioned it. My explanation was more to give clarification to how dopamine and serotonin work together.

    So, we are on the same page.

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
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    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Marisa/Craig,

    Very interesting stuff here. Thanks.

    Personally, I always have had trouble getting, and staying asleep. I have found the sleep programs on my Proteus and Procyon to be very effective in getting to sleep and also very useful if I wake up and have trouble getting to sleep again.

    I have to admit, this is a bit habit forming and I probably use them more often (+50% of the time) than I really need to. However, I don't really see much downside it this as the benefits are very positive, and a heck of a lot healthier than using medication in my opinion.

    Cheers,
    TomC

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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Hey Tom,

    Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post
    Marisa/Craig,

    Very interesting stuff here. Thanks.

    Personally, I always have had trouble getting, and staying asleep. I have found the sleep programs on my Proteus and Procyon to be very effective in getting to sleep and also very useful if I wake up and have trouble getting to sleep again.

    I have to admit, this is a bit habit forming and I probably use them more often (+50% of the time) than I really need to. However, I don't really see much downside it this as the benefits are very positive, and a heck of a lot healthier than using medication in my opinion.

    Cheers,
    TomC
    This gets me thinking ... When is a routine a habit and when is a habit an addiction and is addiction to something benign a bad thing? Like if you get into the habit of brushing your teeth before you go to bed and feel quite uncomfortable if you go to bed without brushing your teeth ... are you addicted to brushing your teeth?

    There is also the entrainment factor of using an AVS machine to help sleep. It can take up-wards of 30 sessions to entrain your brain to naturally go into that state when desired. Essentially after, lets say 30 sessions, a month of continuous use, you should be able to lie down and imagine the sound of the machine and the rhythm of the lights and lull yourself to sleep that way - because the brain has been entrained to do so. Hmmm that makes me think that it's actually a good thing to get into the habit of using an AVS machine especially if you are trying to make a significant change (such as stress reduction, improved concentration etc.).

    Entrainment itself could be considered a habit.

    M.
    Last edited by Marisa; 06-23-2009 at 03:21 AM.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

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  9. Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Thanks everyone, that's very helpful.

    I've never had what I'd call sleep problems, I just wake up 2-3 times per night and have been doing it for over 30 years. It seems, instead of going into light sleep after the 90 minute cycle, I wake up. (I only found this out in the last few days as my rule has always been to never look at the clock but I thought I'd confim it for a week.)

    I didn't want to create a problem where there was "no" problem but I still want to see if BWE can change things as an experiment.

    I'm okay with using it every night and I don't care about doing it forever, I just didn't want to feel compelled to, say, take it with me on holiday (even though I probably will if it works as I expect).

    I've always wanted to experiment with (self) mind control but failed miserably at conventional self hypnosis. On the other hand I have relatives with migranes, chronic back pain, depression and ADHD so I thought I'd be the guinea pig, if it works with me, it may help them.

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    Default Re: Is BWE Habit forming.

    Hi Lucifer,

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    Thanks everyone, that's very helpful.

    I've always wanted to experiment with (self) mind control but failed miserably at conventional self hypnosis.
    I'm guessing that you failed at self-hypnosis because you had inadequate instruction. There is a way to use language and state of mind for self hypnosis and it's usually not taught in books. Having said that, a really good book that gives great insight into the subject (if you can ignore some of the spiritual stuff) is The Power of Your Subconscious Mind by Joseph Murphy. It was initially written back in the 60's (has had many reprints) and is available in paperback form. It is one of the most comprehensive books I've read on the subject (and I've read lots).

    One of the best ways to learn self-mind control is to study NLP. If you can afford it, taking the Practitioner's certification is absolutely worth while. If money is an issue, there are books and DVDs. The process will be slower but it is do-able. It can be a difficult subject to master on your own and if you go that route, you may want to read some general books (listed below) before you tackle the hard-core stuff.

    Authors such as Tony Robbins and Dr. Wayne Dyer touch on some of the principles of NLP. These books are an easy read and contain a lot of useful information on how the mind works and how to work your mind. If you glance through them, it may not appear like there is good information or it may appear like it only applies to a certain group of people (executives, for example) however, the information is universal and useful.

    If you are more esoterically inclined, you can learn some of the principles through Robert Anton Wilson, Carlos Castaneda, Israel Regardie and Crowley (if you know what to look for). Stay away from Anton LeVey's material because it's faulty.

    Sorry ... went on a tangent. It excites me when someone mentions an interest in learning mental martial arts.

    (a little devil smiley for you Lucifer)

    M.
    Marisa Broughton, MCHT, MNLP
    Canadian Distributor for Mindplace
    http://www.ayrmetes.com

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...ations-40b.png at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

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