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Thread: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

  1. #1

    Default Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    First of all, I've only been using my new Sirius unit (with the white-light frames) for ~ a week now. However, I am a long time Mindplace user and also own a Procyon (+4 months), a Proteus (+ 6 years) and a ThoughtStream (+5 years).

    Originally I was going to just upgrade my old optional Proteus Tru-white glasses (ones with the big, pointy LED's) to the new ones with more comfortable frames, but for only ~$50 more I thought it would be fun to try out the Sirius unit (which included these glasses anyway).

    Overall, I really love this little unit. It's so simple to use and works very well, esp. as an a Audiostrobe unit. I find that the AS CD's have much better light patterns with this unit compared to my others.

    In closed-eye mode I don't personally see a lot of colours with any of my units but I do see, and like, the patterns best with the Sirius unit.

    The only problem I've had is with the Manual mode (U2 mode). In this mode you just pick a pitch (before you start your session) and frequency (anytime). You can also use the middle button to go between 'Focus' (default) and 'Expand' modes anytime as well. The problem is that while the 'Focus' mode follows the entrainment beat chosen, the 'Expand' mode, in my opinion, does not.

    In 'Expand' mode both the lights and noise pulses do an echo effect (I think that this is an 180 phase shift) and this essentially doubles the entrainment rate. So, if you thought you were doing a 10hz alpha session on focus mode and then went to expand mode, you were probably doing a 20hz beta session.

    I have not tried very many in-built Sirius sessions but I suspect that these may do the same thing.

    Maybe just a small flaw in the progamming?

    Cheers,
    TomC

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    That's the first time anyone has asked that question, to my knowledge. I'll try and find out for you.

    -Andy.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post
    First of all, I've only been using my new Sirius unit (with the white-light frames) for ~ a week now. However, I am a long time Mindplace user and also own a Procyon (+4 months), a Proteus (+ 6 years) and a ThoughtStream (+5 years).

    Originally I was going to just upgrade my old optional Proteus Tru-white glasses (ones with the big, pointy LED's) to the new ones with more comfortable frames, but for only ~$50 more I thought it would be fun to try out the Sirius unit (which included these glasses anyway).

    Overall, I really love this little unit. It's so simple to use and works very well, esp. as an a Audiostrobe unit. I find that the AS CD's have much better light patterns with this unit compared to my others.

    In closed-eye mode I don't personally see a lot of colours with any of my units but I do see, and like, the patterns best with the Sirius unit.

    The only problem I've had is with the Manual mode (U2 mode). In this mode you just pick a pitch (before you start your session) and frequency (anytime). You can also use the middle button to go between 'Focus' (default) and 'Expand' modes anytime as well. The problem is that while the 'Focus' mode follows the entrainment beat chosen, the 'Expand' mode, in my opinion, does not.

    In 'Expand' mode both the lights and noise pulses do an echo effect (I think that this is an 180 phase shift) and this essentially doubles the entrainment rate. So, if you thought you were doing a 10hz alpha session on focus mode and then went to expand mode, you were probably doing a 20hz beta session.

    I have not tried very many in-built Sirius sessions but I suspect that these may do the same thing.

    Maybe just a small flaw in the progamming?

    Cheers,
    TomC
    That's an interesting one, Tom.

    You're absolutely correct, but because the eyes and ears hook up to the brain differently, it's actually even more tricky than you have described.

    Using 1Hz as an example, in focus mode you get a beep and a flash every second. In expand mode each eye and each ear still gets a pulse every second, but the phase difference introduces the complication you've noticed. This is fine for the sound, as each ear is associated with it's own hemisphere and the phase difference shouldn't really matter, but the eyes don't work the same way. So what you're getting is 1Hz audio and 2Hz visual.

    I suspect this is more an oversight than a bug - I wouldn't have even thought about it if you hadn't brought it up.

    Cheers,
    Craig

  4. #4

    Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigT View Post
    That's an interesting one, Tom.

    You're absolutely correct, but because the eyes and ears hook up to the brain differently, it's actually even more tricky than you have described.

    Using 1Hz as an example, in focus mode you get a beep and a flash every second. In expand mode each eye and each ear still gets a pulse every second, but the phase difference introduces the complication you've noticed. This is fine for the sound, as each ear is associated with it's own hemisphere and the phase difference shouldn't really matter, but the eyes don't work the same way. So what you're getting is 1Hz audio and 2Hz visual.

    I suspect this is more an oversight than a bug - I wouldn't have even thought about it if you hadn't brought it up.

    Cheers,
    Craig

    Craig,

    Thanks for this explanation of the problem. I think it's a bit clearer than mine. I did not know about the sound phasing not having an effect, very interesting. The eye phasing is a problem though since it essentially conflicts with the targetted audio frequency. This cannot be a good thing with respect to BWE. For now on I will just use the focus option in manual mode. Alternatively, I will only use the manual expand with headphones only (no glasses) and/or will use the glasses only but select 1/2 the Hz rate.

    Unfortunately, all the Sirius built-in sessions have some degree of Expand mode within them. Sessions 21 and 22 seem to have the least amount of Expand mode and are probably the only ones that I would recommend using with the lightframe glasses. All the other sessions are probably best used with headphones only (no lightframe glasses).

    I think that the simple solution is that the frequency of each light channel needs to be reduced by 50% when the Sirius goes into Expand mode. I don't know, but I would think that this could be done with an OS upgrade. Maybe the Sirius chip could be re-flashed through the audio input, like the Proteus/Procyon but I really don't know how difficult this would be to do.

    Sorry, I don't mean to 'open a can of worms' but I think this is a fairly serious (or Sirius!) problem and needs to be addressed by MindPlace.

    Best cheers,
    TomC

  5. Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Tom

    I wondered about this effect you report with my Proteus in manual ( expand ) mode. In other words will I be effectively getting an entrainment frequency of double the HZ ?. However I decided that the red light is still so dominant that the feel of the entrainment was the same. Craigs explanation of alternate hemisphere entrainment won't apply to the Proteus as in expand mode the two colours are still flashing in alternate unison in each eye ( don't think I expressed that well ) The visuals are much much better in 'expand 'mode on the Proteus.

    I have been toying with the idea of getting a Sirius as another AS decoder. Can you verify that plugging in the 2 colour Proteus glasses into the Sirius gives a normal (Proteus like) response ?

    Mark

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Hi Mark,

    Yes, the Sirius looks the same with bicolor glasses as the Proteus, and the effect is still the same - the light is twice the frequency of the audio in expand mode.

    My feeling is that it really doesn't matter in the slightest - the sessions I've listened to on the Sirius [never spend long enough in expand mode to entrain (6+ minutes) anyway], so I view them as just a very nice way of adding interest and avoiding habituation.

    Cheers,
    Craig

    Remind me to check my references before I make statements! I just checked the Sirius Session Details PDF and there are many sessions that have over 6 minutes of expand mode. I still believe it is relatively unimportant, as it is harmonically related.
    Last edited by CraigT; 03-05-2009 at 01:34 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by synaesthesia View Post
    Tom

    I wondered about this effect you report with my Proteus in manual ( expand ) mode. In other words will I be effectively getting an entrainment frequency of double the HZ ?. However I decided that the red light is still so dominant that the feel of the entrainment was the same. Craigs explanation of alternate hemisphere entrainment won't apply to the Proteus as in expand mode the two colours are still flashing in alternate unison in each eye ( don't think I expressed that well ) The visuals are much much better in 'expand 'mode on the Proteus.

    I have been toying with the idea of getting a Sirius as another AS decoder. Can you verify that plugging in the 2 colour Proteus glasses into the Sirius gives a normal (Proteus like) response ?

    Mark
    Mark,

    Like Craig says, the 2 colour proteus glasses work fine on the Sirius.

    Personally I prefer the Sirius white glasses with AS CD's because I find that the light patterns are a lot more vivid. You'll just have to try both and see what you like best. Right now my Sirius unit is my favorite (over my Proteus and Procyon units) for all AS usage, including NP2 sessions.

    As far as whether or not this 'expand' mode thing happens with the Proteus or not, I'm not really sure. As an aside, many Proteus and Procyon sessions have a lot of light phase shifts going on. This is to help spice these sessions up a bit. However they probably do so at the cost of some BWE degradation.

    I'm not sue that I agree with Craig's statement that this problem 'doesn't matter in the slightest'. My gut feel (as I'm cetainly no L&S machine expert) is that it matters quite a bit. I have been experimenting with multiple AS tracks using NP2 and it seems to make a difference to me.

    I agree with Craig that it is a good idea to shift frequencies a bit during most sessions, esp. long ones, to avoid habituation. However, I think it's better to do so by shifting freq's up and down a bit, not as harmonic shifts. Again, this is just my gut feel and I could very well be wrong about all this.

    I guess that's the beauty of all this stuff. There are no right and wrong answers, just whatever works for you!

    I would still like to see MindPlace address this issue with the Sirius expand mode at some time though.

    Cheers,
    TomC

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Tom,

    I'm not sure if I agree with myself either - I'm tired and I don't think enough is truly known about complex stimuli to really have anything more than an opinion.

    When I get the EEG doing useful things maybe I'll be able to test out some of these theories, but in the meantime, I definitely agree with your 'whatever works for you' philosophy

    Cheers,
    Craig

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Thanks Craig, we've both got honest views, but who really knows how all these things come together! Suck and see, is all we can really do.

    Mark, I managed to check out my Proteus in user mode and I'm afraid the Expand mode does the same thing as it does with the Sirius. It's a bit harder to see with all those LED's flashing. I reprogrammed my Proteus to OS 2.8, selected monocolour mode and used my whiteframe glasses. It was then very easy to see that it was doing exactly the same thing as the Sirius. Again, I don't really know how big an issue this is, but at least you and others are aware of it.

    Cheers,
    TomC

  10. Default Re: Sirius Manual (U2) Mode Expand vs Focus Problem?

    Thanks for looking into it , Tom. I hadn't noticed the monocolour option in the Procyon editor.

    I guess at the end of the day, whether you have mono or dual color frames , th eresult of expand mode, is the same. Effectively a doubling of the light frequency of that indicated when you are in manual mode. I don't think its such a problem with dual colour glasses as the red is still so dominant but mono white colour glasses the potential for upsetting the desired entrainment frquency may well be there.

    Prehaps this is something Craig can look into when he settles in with his EEG.

    Mark

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