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Thread: Meditation and AVS

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    Default Meditation and AVS

    Hi Bob,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob
    Hi Marisa,
    I signed up and read through the forums. You've put in large amounts of effort to support users and to provoke discussion so I thought it relevant to give some views for your perusal. I'm new to machine based introspection but have a lengthy traditional background based on Yoga and martial arts training. Please feel free to critique my comment in publicspace
    I can certainly appreciate the dedication and skill levels one attains through both yoga and martial arts.

    If you want to take any of this conversation over to the forum so that others can benefit from it, just start a topic there. It's okay if it's repetitive from what we have or may discuss.


    Two specific topics that you raised struck home:
    -) Profound experience from meditation
    -) Attention focus during work and study
    soooo... item 1 -)
    You state that meditation occurs in the theta domain (with some beta and/or alpha presence to promote conscious awareness) . My personal view is that the profound silence -- with subtle but very shifted perception occurs in the delta region. (Dumping yourself into dreamland would appear to lead to a very busy conscious mind...)
    Perhaps a low Theta borderline Delta would be closest to this state. The farther you go into Delta, the further you go into unconsciousness. By the time you are at 2 -3 Hz, you are pretty much asleep (which in a sense is profound silence but I doubt that is not what you are talking about).

    I will take a look through my literature and see if I can find some more information for you. I vaguely recall that there were some studies done on brain states and meditation. Unfortunately at the moment, I don't remember what the studies concluded or if their conclusions are relevant to our conversation.



    Here is my present solution:
    Run a Procyon mind-art session with the first two tracks from the Insight CD (from http://www.immrama.org/ ) mixed-in. Enjoy the visuals to the hilt (theta) then progress ( i.e. short "trip" to delta focus) with audio only (headphone swap as Procyon shuts down), sometimes your mind will stay busy, but I find that this is not frequent.
    The Mind Art programs are designed for entertainment purposes and so you will not get any kind of "therapeutic" effect from them. You probably would not be able to achieve a Theta state in a Mind Art program because it's too "active" - it may even cancel out the effects of the Insight Cd. You would probably be better off choosing a program in the Tranquility range or Visualization. You could try it in one of the Night Voyage programs, but you'll probably fall asleep.
    Last edited by Andy; 05-08-2008 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    Bob says:

    Your comments lead me to suspect that my basic assumptions are unsound so I'll expand on a few things:
    The Silence:
    -) no mind chatter
    -) complete (unprovoked) concentration on the present moment. Senses appear accentuated giving the world a magical facet.
    -) stress leads to immediate self observation (like very refined witnessing, but just happens rather than involving conscious decision ).
    -) planning and problem solving occurs rapidly, efficiently and without irrelevant emotional trauma. Any visual imagery involved appears cinematic rather than
    'egocentric'.

    This can last for some hours following meditation. I've not yet discovered how to do this using the standard Procyon library (thus my mail...and inclusion of solely binaural beat references) but definitely there are many big benefits in using the (combined) sound and light approach (perhaps discuss this later).

    Agreed that delta alone shuts you down. In the presence of some concurrent beta and alpha stimulus there would appear to be some scope for accessing the deep subconcious whilst remaining very aware. This is in fundamental essence what I suspect I've been doing (yep pure conjecture inspired by profound experience).

    Mind art is a riot and really stimulates the theta domain. I totally agree this is poor meditation but it grabs you by the throat and sticks you fairly close so as a warmup it gets all your attention before the transition to where the changes occur.

    I'll try and borrow a spectrum analyser to discern the frequency content in the immrama tracks. (....and I expect this will show that your comments are correct..... )

    Perhaps try what I suggested a few times? Holosync (dive then immersion tracks, any level) also work for me. (borrow the stuff for a week; you must have contacts). I'd really like to get a Procyon version in place as the combined light and sound results are really rapid and damn forceful (not to mention that I get up late and thus curtail my morning sessions...).

    Best regards,
    Bob

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Your comments lead me to suspect that my basic assumptions are unsound so I'll expand on a few things:
    The Silence:
    -) no mind chatter
    -) complete (unprovoked) concentration on the present moment. Senses appear accentuated giving the world a magical facet.
    -) stress leads to immediate self observation (like very refined witnessing, but just happens rather than involving conscious decision ).
    -) planning and problem solving occurs rapidly, efficiently and without irrelevant emotional trauma. Any visual imagery involved appears cinematic rather than
    'egocentric'.
    This almost sounds like a good SMR (Beta state) especially since the mind is quite active in problem solving and planning. Interesting.

    This can last for some hours following meditation. I've not yet discovered how to do this using the standard Procyon library (thus my mail...and inclusion of solely binaural beat references) but definitely there are many big benefits in using the (combined) sound and light approach (perhaps discuss this later).
    I wonder if using a program such as P6 (SMR & Alpha) would be beneficial after meditation.

    Agreed that delta alone shuts you down. In the presence of some concurrent beta and alpha stimulus there would appear to be some scope for accessing the deep subconscious whilst remaining very aware. This is in fundamental essence what I suspect I've been doing (yep pure conjecture inspired by profound experience).
    It makes me wonder if short bursts of Gamma would work ... something between 50 - 75 Hz. You would only want to go there for a few seconds at a time or else you could end up more anxious than in a "super state" (for lack of better words). I mention gamma because I've read that shorts bursts of gamma can take someone into a higher state of altered consciousness and accelerated thinking. I don't know how true this is though logically it makes more sense than going further down into unconsciousness because that state would slow your mind down rather than activate it to a heightened state.

    Mind art is a riot and really stimulates the theta domain. I totally agree this is poor meditation but it grabs you by the throat and sticks you fairly close so as a warm up it gets all your attention before the transition to where the changes occur.
    How do you know that Mind Art actually stimulates the theta domain? I have my doubts because your description does not resonate with a theta state.

    Thanks Bob, for this conversation. It is quite interesting to me and I'm sure others will find it interesting (and hopefully join it) as well.

    M.
    Last edited by Andy; 05-08-2008 at 10:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    You may find this interesting even though the studies don't have anything to do with AVS induced meditation:

    "Three case reports of them metabolic and electroencephalographic changes during advanced Buddhist meditation techniques. Study conducted by the Department of Medicine, New England Deaconess Hospital, Boston. Published in Behav Med 1990 Summer; 16(2):90-5.

    ... On the EEG, marked asymmetry in alpha and beta activity between the hemispheres and increased beta activity were present."


    Another study found that "during meditation, proficient mediators demonstrated increased alpha and theta power, minimal evidence of EEG-defined sleep, and decreased autonomic orienting to external stimulation. An episode of sudden autonomic activation was observed that was characterized by the meditator as an approach to the Yogic ecstatic state of intense concentration. These findings challenge the current "relaxation" model of meditative states." Source: Arch Gen Psychiatry 1978 May;35(5):571-7. Study was "Psycholophysiological correlates of the practice of Tantric Yoga meditation.



    Source:
    Chapter 1:
    Scientific Studies of Contemplative Experience: An Overview
    by Michael Murphy
    http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm
    The Zen teachers and their most experienced students exhibited a typical progression of brain-wave activity during meditation, which Kasamatsu and Hirai divided into four stages:
    • Stage 1: Characterized by the appearance of alpha waves in spite of opened eyes.
    • Stage 2: Characterized by an increase in amplitude of persistent alpha waves.
    • Stage 3: Characterized by a decrease in alpha frequency.
    • Stage 4: Characterized by the appearance of rhythmical theta trains (Kasamatsu and Hirai, 1966).
    Not all four stages were evident in every Zen practitioner, nor in any of the controls, but a strong correlation existed between the number of stages a given student exhibited and that student's length of time in Zen training. This correlation was supported by a Zen teacher's evaluation of each student's proficiency. The teacher ranked the students in three levels, without seeing their EEG records, and his rankings correlated well with Kasamatsu and Hirai's assessment of their EEGs.

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    ...so now I get fed to the wolves for promoting competing technologies...err, thanks Merisa.

    I'm not sure that feeling significant effect from meditation is the best route to follow; really don't know. Clearing out the subconscious mess would seem necessary to achieve full brain activity which is where this effort should ultimately lead.

    Zen studies, hmm you've got me dialed! Thanks for the link. I'm sure this will lead to more interesting dialogue.

    I've got a Grand Unified Theory for this stuff so I think it best if more of the reasoning and basis is exposed for review. I'll try and defend my perspective (if I can...) but hope that this does not appear as arrogance. I'm listening and really appreciate other's effort and input .

    I have binaural sound tracks with (claimed) beta, alpha, theta and delta focus. None of these appear to induce sleep so there is more in there. Although of differing duration they use the same rainfall sound to mask the underlying binaural tones.
    Beta track:
    - seems to alleviate mental and physical fatigue but is nowhere as effective as most Procyon sessions. It seems to accentuate emotional attachment to viewpoints and circumstances. It is recommended for sport preparation and activity. Tried it for kettlebell workouts and found masses of motivation at a very high cost in technique. Big bruises, crap workouts.
    Alpha track: Use this lots. Allows 40 pages of dense academic material to be studied with no glitches in attention. Retention of the info is way higher than with normal study. Retention with interspersed Procyon sessions results in almost no reason for revised reading.
    Used with kettlebell training results in really focussed workouts with good technique and high rep count. Got that slightly detached martial arts feel
    Theta track: Recommended for generating creative solutions with pre-preparation of problem area. Tried this repeatedly and got images from anything but the 'focus' area. Much was scary. Decided to run meditation to clear this out over some months (using a witness perspective to deal with the disturbing stuff). Although this has turned quieter I've never ended a session with anything but a busy mind. I've also never seen anything creative during a session...but after a few weeks I found myself playing jazz piano integrating a vast range of stuff I've never studied.
    Delta track: This makes the silence. I'm also left with the viewpoint that the state that follows is continued meditation (and very different than the effects of the alpha or beta tracks).

    Think this portrays my perspective of my limited little universe... Obviously I'm using heuristic measurement with reliance on the CD wrapper as a scale
    Cheers,
    Bob

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    For those that wish to meddle with binaural beat sound tracks, it is not clever to MP3 these as the data compression can destroy the relevant audio.

    I've not checked using scope/spectrum analyser but recording in SP mode on minidisc using ATRAC3 format seems to retain the relevant detail. (...legacy technology, but really cheap on eBay )

    Recent media players handle more diverse formats than MP3 & 4. Anyone know more?
    Bob

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    Hi Marisa,
    You asked the very relevant question as to how I assess (dominant) state.. After some experimentation with the binaural tracks:
    Beta: unconsidered reaction to outside response, many poor decisions
    Alpha: effortless high level of attention and no strong motivation to directly act. Periferal vision blends in importance to fovial (central) vision. Awareness of sound detail increases. Decisions are deliberate and have 'space'.
    Theta: visionry domain. No real control over subject. In a meditation context this is cinematic rather than having the interaction that occurs in dreams.
    Delta: Detatched viewpoint just watching the present without feeling any motivation for action. When action occurs it just happens. Decisions seem uncomplicated. Results from decision have so far been good

    Following mind art I find the visionary domain is present if I just sit. (I' ve also found that over time that the abstract mind art visuals have slowed and are becoming scenes, frequently from memory). So what's your diagnosis? Am I seriously deranged?

    I was born with almost no sight in one eye. The retina is a mess of mangled rods and cones. Since playing with hi-tec meditation sparkles appeared in various places followed by useful vision. This has spread over most of the eye. Not adequate to read with but plenty to contribute to stereoscopic vision. (I've also been eating spirulina, a superfood hjigh in beta-carrotine as part of my vegan sports-related diet,,,see, well, deranged )
    Bob

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Hi Marisa,
    You asked the very relevant question as to how I assess (dominant) state.. After some experimentation with the binaural tracks:
    Beta: unconsidered reaction to outside response, many poor decisions
    Alpha: effortless high level of attention and no strong motivation to directly act. Peripheral vision blends in importance to fovial (central) vision. Awareness of sound detail increases. Decisions are deliberate and have 'space'.
    Theta: visionary domain. No real control over subject. In a meditation context this is cinematic rather than having the interaction that occurs in dreams.
    Delta: Detached viewpoint just watching the present without feeling any motivation for action. When action occurs it just happens. Decisions seem uncomplicated. Results from decision have so far been good
    So essentially, you have attributed certain feelings to achieving certain states. The only way that you would know for sure is by measuring with an EEG. I agree with some of what you say but not all.

    There are some states that are known to be associated with each frequency. They are known because at some point, they were measured with an EEG. For example: Beta is a given when you are awake and performing more of an active task. Alpha is a bit trickier as it usually occurs when you have your eyes closed and fades into the background when you have your eyes open. Mood can be an indicator of alpha as Alpha is associated with a "feel good" group of frequencies and with being in a relaxed state. Theta is associated with a trance state, day dreaming and hypnosis. . Delta is associated with sleep and unconscious processing ... the key here is "unconscious" ... not awake.

    A healthy person will never have Delta as a dominant wave state while they are awake. Delta as a dominant wave state during awake periods would be an indication of brain injury, fetal alcohol syndrome and substance abuse. The exception here is that in children up to the age of four, Delta is the dominant brain wave.

    A person will periodically slip in and out of theta during waking hours. Sometimes repetitive, mundane actions induce theta, just as they would induce a trance. Example, painting a fence, waiting in a long line, watching TV, listening to a somewhat boring lecture ...

    Following mind art I find the visionary domain is present if I just sit. (I' ve also found that over time that the abstract mind art visuals have slowed and are becoming scenes, frequently from memory). So what's your diagnosis? Am I seriously deranged?
    Totally damaged .. ha ha just kidding. Scenes from past memories are a state associated with Theta so ... perhaps it does take you there.

    I was born with almost no sight in one eye. The retina is a mess of mangled rods and cones. Since playing with hi-tec meditation sparkles appeared in various places followed by useful vision. This has spread over most of the eye. Not adequate to read with but plenty to contribute to stereoscopic vision. (I've also been eating spirulina, a superfood high in beta-carrotine as part of my vegan sports-related diet,,,see, well, deranged )
    So you have a little organic mind art to add to the mind art of the session. That must make for an interesting experience. Are you sure it's spirulina? hee hee

    M.

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    My thanks to Marisa for the link to the academic review paper. Recommend anyone interested in the physiological effects of meditation to read through this and the surrounding links. It should also be of interest to anyone interested to see how scientists are appraising this area.

    The discussions appear to have raised a few apparent contradictions:
    -) Marisa states that delta focussed entrainment produces an unconcious sleep state and there is both scientific evidence and a host of AVS sessions that show that this is correct.
    -) Marisa states that meditation should occur in the Theta (perhaps down to upper delta) domain. This is consistent with the study of Zen masters and followers that she refers to above.
    ...however
    -) Imramma Insight and Holosync both claim to operate in low delta and do not enforce sleep.
    -) Entrainment in the Theta regions produces a busy mind and loads of images rather than tranquility and/or a profound feeling of change.

    I suspect that something along the following lines is happening:
    -) Traditional meditation takes years to master so the unconcious regions are opened to conciousness over a lengthy period. The conflicts between the two regions
    are thus well resolved for skilled traditional meditators thus they experience tranquility. AVS and binaural beat technologies produce very rapid effect thus there is a very
    large amounts for the concious mind to process.
    -) The binaural beat tracks contain delta combined with other entrainment to retain some conciousness. (There is a statement inferring this in the Holosync audio suppot material.) Suspect that this is low Beta or high Alpha.
    -) The Imramma and Holosync tracks 'cheat' by opening the subconcious but not by stimulating the regions where there is much pictorial (memory) and emotional content.
    Note that there is still disturbance when using these but it appears as e.g. breathing won't settle, leg muscle keeps tightening, shoulder blade won't stay relaxed etc.
    To borrow (possibly unfairly ) from Marisa, "unconcious processing is stimulated" (rather than the Theta dream region).

    Do we have anyone with longterm AVS usage for 'pure' meditation purposes around? If Theta region meditation is used, does it quieten? Any comment on how long this took?

    Marisa, I'll return to comment on/reply to the large number of points that you have contributed. Like you style; you keep needling me
    Bob
    Last edited by Andy; 05-12-2008 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Corrected Marisa's Name Spelling :)

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    Default Re: Meditation and AVS

    Quote Originally Posted by Marisa View Post
    So essentially, you have attributed certain feelings to achieving certain states. The only way that you would know for sure is by measuring with an EEG. I agree with some of what you say but not all.
    bob: yep, completely heuristic assessment. ...and even worse is that experience with raja yoga leaves me able to meddle; not very objective then...
    NMR or EEG assessment would be very interesting. My real interest is in developing the ability to utilise whole brain functionality at will. Training up control of specific intermediate states would seem to be one approach. The Zen style sudden complete transition has a record of success and has the benefit of just happening (not to mention the drawback of just not happening).

    There are some states that are known to be associated with each frequency. They are known because at some point, they were measured with an EEG. For example: Beta is a given when you are awake and performing more of an active task. Alpha is a bit trickier as it usually occurs when you have your eyes closed and fades into the background when you have your eyes open. Mood can be an indicator of alpha as Alpha is associated with a "feel good" group of frequencies and with being in a relaxed state. Theta is associated with a trance state, day dreaming and hypnosis. . Delta is associated with sleep and unconscious processing ... the key here is "unconscious" ... not awake.
    bob: deep meditation appears to combine two unusually related states. Traditional meditators appear to reside in Theta but can be very aware of the outside. I have a suspicion that the binaural beat tracks I've used combine (probably some balance) of delta and beta(/high alpha)

    A healthy person will never have Delta as a dominant wave state while they are awake. Delta as a dominant wave state during awake periods would be an indication of brain injury, fetal alcohol syndrome and substance abuse. The exception here is that in children up to the age of four, Delta is the dominant brain wave.
    bob: sounds like I didn't grow up perhaps ...or got stuck somewhere in subsequent chilhoods. Seriously though: meditation opens the unconcious mind to progressive degrees. The state that you switch to following meditation need not be the same as during meditation. The claim that I am making is that I frequently function differently for some hours following meditation using claimed delta based binaural tracks. I am able to e.g solve complex design tasks whilst only seeing immediate decisions and just passively watching the present. Replaying the design route later leaves me to believe that the problem decisions were made from a sound position covering all the design facets. Looks like went to bed with a complex decision, woke with a really tidy, well thought through solution only only didn't need the 7 hours of background processing.

    A person will periodically slip in and out of theta during waking hours. Sometimes repetitive, mundane actions induce theta, just as they would induce a trance. Example, painting a fence, waiting in a long line, watching TV, listening to a somewhat boring lecture ...
    bob: I personally dislike this as a waking state, (possibly why I've never owned a TV...). I've found that hi-tec meditation has close to eliminated it.

    Totally damaged .. ha ha just kidding. Scenes from past memories are a state associated with Theta so ... perhaps it does take you there.
    bob: I'll try running some of your alternative AVS sessions and see if the final outcome has a different bias. I'm fairly certain that I can increase beta with eyes open (unsurprising given the martial arts background) and am wondering if the theta region may also be under partial conscious influence...

    So you have a little organic mind art to add to the mind art of the session. That must make for an interesting experience. Are you sure it's spirulina? hee hee

    M.
    Label says spirulina, must read the "Use By:" date more carefully in future
    Last edited by Marisa; 05-12-2008 at 08:32 AM. Reason: Had to fix the "quotes" so that I could respond to message

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