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Thread: Deep Vision Overstimulating?

  1. #1

    Default Deep Vision Overstimulating?

    I've been using the DV glasses for about 10 days. I am starting to notice that my mood has become more irritable, i.e. I feel bitchy and less patient. I am primarily doing beta/gamma sessions from the kasina files and NP3 files. I am using primarily beta/gamma sessions for my seasonal affective disorder because I read that we need more stimulation in the winter. When I used the regular kasina glasses, I didn't feel this way and am wondering if others have experienced this. Not sure if this means I should stop using the DV? I did the Wake session this morning and found myself relaxing after a while but then maybe half an hour after coming out of it, I feel irritated. What's going on?

  2. Default Re: Deep Vision Overstimulating?

    I wouldn't suggest overstimulation, but malstimulation... where did you find Beta/Gamma recommended for SAD? The protocols I'm aware of target Alpha - check out Dave Siever's report on "Audio-Visual Entrainment and Diffuse Axonal Injuries" as an example:

    Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) involves reduced levels of melatonin, a neurotransmitter that regulates circadian rhythms and hibernation in animals. Melatonin slows brainwaves and reduces CBF as it prepares us for sleep (Murphy, 1993). Endorphins are essential for blocking pain and are the basis of analgesic medication. Low levels of serotonin are part of most every psychiatric disorder. Moderate levels of norepinephrine (brain’s adrenaline) are involved in mental vigilance. Norepinephrine is increased by caffeine, which is why we enjoy a cup of coffee so much in the morning. A direct correlation between psychiatric disorders including anxiety, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, memory and cognitive disorders has been linked to brain neurotransmitter action (Emmons, 2010; Arco & Mora, 2009). There is evidence that cerebral-spinal fluid levels of melatonin fall while serotonin, endorphin, and norepinephrine levels rise considerably following 10 Hz, white-light AVE (Shealy, et al. 1989). Increases in endorphins reflect increased relaxation while increased norepinephrine along with a reduction in winter daytime levels of melatonin typically increase alertness (Figure 10).

  3. #3

    Default Re: Deep Vision Overstimulating?

    in another of his SAD papers called "A Controlled Comparison of Audio-Visual Entrainment for Treating Seasonal Affective Disorder" published in 2009, he talks of using frequencies of 20hz so that was why. The paper you posted has a copyright date of 2016 (doesn't mean research was done in 2016), but that paper may be more accurate than the 2009 paper. I'll take a look at that one.

    I have been using alpha sessions mid day. I was too wondering today if I'm doing too much beta. The routine I have been doing is beta or gamma in the morning and alpha mid day. I found it didn't work to do alpha in the morning. Made me more sleepy. But now I am just doing one session a day, the morning beta/gamma session. I'll try to see if using alpha in the afternoon more often will be helpful. Maybe I can do gamma/beta sessions in the morning every other day.

  4. Default Re: Deep Vision Overstimulating?

    You are correct and I am all wrong :-) In the 2016 paper, it seems he mentions SAD just as an example regarding relevance of neutrotransmitters with regaresd to psychiatric disorders, and the 10 Hz reference later doesn't refer to SAD at all. Sorry for the confusion... on the bright side: I learned something new today ;-)

    So yes, 20 Hz sounds like the way to go, which is corroborated by the fact that the SAD session in the DAVID device produces frequencies in the 19-21 Hz range (I think they like to include a bit of randomized variation to prevent habituation effects).

    How much of that do you do per day? Could it be that you overdo it? I would think 30' should suffice per day, even though I couldn't find any information on length of daily treatment. The SAD session description also mentions "may cause anxiety" - so if you are feeling antsy, you may indeed feel the side effects of too much Beta.

    Another thought: You mention in your SAD post that you were pretty happy with your first device - at that time you had not included Gamma sessions. Now, with the Gamma sessions, you notice irritability. I think it might be a good idea to just use the good old Beta for a couple of days to see whether that takes care of the problem. While Gamma has exciting potential, I am not aware of much actual research on it... also, everyone has his/her individual reaction anyhow. So best to work with what works well :-) If Beta helped you to reduce your meds, this might be the best option right now.

  5. Default Re: Deep Vision Overstimulating?

    There seems to be some differing opinions on the web about what the actual boundaries of Gamma waves are, but for the purpose of this post I will go with 40 - 100 Hz which I have seen most frequent. Whether this post will help with your SAD I don't know, but is aimed more at what may be (possibly) a misconception about inducing Gamma waves via BWE. I have never been convinced that entraining above 40 Hz is the correct way to go to induce Gamma waves and it may actually be more of a case of slowing your brainwaves down. I have read a few articles that have stated that when you start entraining faster than Beta, your brain will go into a higher gear to handle the faster speed (a bit like when a car goes into higher gears to handle faster speeds) but I have never been convinced by this argument.

    Maybe it's a case that these somewhat more mysterious brainwaves, such as Gamma, Hyper-Gamma (100 - 199 Hz) and Lambda (200 Hz) actually correlate more to slower brainwaves such as Theta, Delta and Epsilon. Gamma waves have a very low amplitude and are normally very weak in most people. Whilst Gamma waves may increase after you wake up, Gamma is also constantly present in REM sleep, when you have a predominantly slower brainwave state. Another example is that if somebody were to study a Lambda wave, they will see it correlates to a very slow Epsilon wave.

    It would seem these these very fast brainwaves (Gamma, Hyper-Gamma and Lambda) actually ride and modulate on slower brainwaves (Theta, Delta & Epsilon), so is speeding up your brainwaves the way to go here, or maybe slowing them down?

    Take a few examples. As you may have read, Tibetan/Buddhist monks have shown to have an higher amplitude of Gamma waves, and maybe more Gamma activity than the average person and maybe this comes from their practice of meditation, sometimes many hours a day, rather than speeding their brainwaves up. Also think about the difference between beginner and experienced meditators. When someone begins meditation (with or without BWE) and they start getting down into low Alpha/Theta they may fall asleep, which would be completely normal as theses brainwave states are associated with the sleep cycles. Whereas,when experienced meditators get down into these slower states however, they may retain some level of awareness or even full awareness. So if beginner meditators are falling asleep and experienced meditators have levels of awareness, something different may be going on in the brain. But what? Maybe it's increased Gamma wave activity in a predominant slower brainwave state. Maybe it's this increased Gamma activity that also gives rise to things like expanded awareness or altered states of consciousness that sometimes accompanies continued practice of meditation.

    I also think you are doing too much Beta, especially if you already have enough Beta, as stress and anxiety can be symptoms of too much high Beta and it is also my feeling that speeding your brainwaves up even faster, to what you think may be Gamma, may be making things worse. Hopefully this article (especially that latter parts) will give you a little more understanding of Gamma waves and how these faster brainwave states correlate and interact with slower brainwaves. Take note of the bit about meditation on page 19 with regards to Gamma waves. Again, whether this will help with your SAD I don't know, but may help with your stress levels. Maybe Gamma and Beta waves aren't are the best of friends and don't get along very well and Gamma waves may prefer the company of Theta waves instead.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Deep Vision Overstimulating?

    So I haven't done any beta sessions since yesterday morning and I've done 2 alpha sessions and I don't feel overstimulated so I think it probably is the brainwave and not the DV glasses.

    I read somewhere that people with SAD have too much theta brainwaves so that's why the use of beta is suggested. I would experience sleepiness and mild depression with my SAD and I would pretty much be yawning all day. It's not about feeling tired or fatigued, it's sleepiness which is qualitatively different from tiredness. I could still be active and do stuff but I'd be so sleepy and yawning. I'd have a harder time remembering things as well.

  7. Default Re: Deep Vision Overstimulating?

    Maybe your problems have nothing to do with brainwaves or indeed the brain. Based on your previous posts, I see you have done quite a bit of research. Have you ever come across how gut (and digestive) health can have an affect on mood? Scientists and medical researchers now think the the gut may be even more complex than the brain (rather than the gut being the second brain) and that mental disorders may originate in the gut, not the brain. About 95% of the body's Serotonin is found in the digestive tract as well as about 70% of the body's immune system. Depression is thought to be a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is why people are often prescribed anti-depressants (SSRIs) but this in fact has never been proven. You may have also come across information on your body's Circadian and Ultradian rhythms which regulate mood and energy levels. An important point here is that the brain and gut have separate Ultradian rhythms.

    If not already, maybe look at pre and probiotic supplements. Psyllium husk powder as well which you can buy in tubs that you mix with water + a pre/probiotic supplement. Some come with strains of good bacteria included. I see you have already tried foods that supposedly help with SAD but maybe absorption of these (and other vitamins and minerals) maybe a problem if your digestive tract is not performing optimally. Again, if not already, maybe the gut-brain connection and how it may affect mood may be worth looking into.
    Last edited by robinhood; 01-25-2017 at 01:49 AM. Reason: fix typo

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