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Thread: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    I have used that technique before, even to make sessions that more closely model the flow of EEG readings in meditation. A valuable feature in the Enterprise version and a good one for research.
    If you know something I don't, speak up! If maybe I know something you don't, ask away!

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    Quote Originally Posted by mosspa View Post
    P.S. Isn't there a specific research forum here? I know I was posting my research ideas somewhere but I can't seem to find the threads.
    Hi John;

    There are some research threads here if that works for you.
    -Andy.

    Hey, if someone makes a good post, don't forget to click at the bottom of their post to add to their reputation!

  3. Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    Quote Originally Posted by neuroasis View Post
    Same here. Many first time user mistakes that could have been prevented. For instance, do not take off the felt pads after each use. You are just going to be frustrated all the time, before you use the thing. And you will lose and break them. Store the EPOC with them on and then take them off every couple of weeks or so to clean them. Set up this way is actually pretty easy. Also putting the headset on backwards is easier to line up too I think. The only problem is that there 3D visualization software display is not very useful this way as everything is reversed.
    Well, when I first looked at the actual construction of the EPOC I realized that several things needed to be addressed. The contact materials on the headset and electrodes appear to be some copper/brass combination. I recognized that this would ultimately be a recipe for trouble in the long run. When we developed our standard operating procedures for the lab I specified that we would remove the electrodes from the headset after each use. Given the saline environment and leakage that seemed to make the most sense. What I did determine, however, was that the locking mechanism on the rehydrator cases is ridiculous, so we filed them down, and then some. Second, in order to deal with the green tarnish and crystallization after every use, we dry the conductors of both the headset and electrodes (if necessary), then we use a Q-tip to apply a bit of Tarn-X (one of those miracle products I could never live without), after which we dry the headset connectors with a dry Q-tip and the electrodes with a cotton cloth. This, effectively deals with the oxidation problem. After playing for a couple of weeks we determined that the electrical interface between the electrodes and the scalp are a lot better if we abrade the scalp a bit, use NuPrep on the frontal electrode sites, and saturate the area around the electrode contact with the contact saline. After we started doing this we have been getting between 11-14 green sites and no orange or red sites. One thing we found early on about the green corrosion is that if it is allowed to get too bad, the electrode ceases to work, almost altogether. That is the electrode will give a sognal that is mostly black with some bursts of red. Since we have been using the Tar-X protocol we have never seen anyything like that again.

    Also, after I saw the construction of the system I purchased two bags of felts and two additional hydratror kits with electrodes. In the three, or so, months we have been working with the EPOC, we have only had to replace four electrode assemblies. I would recommend that anybody who buys any EPOC system also purchase an extra hydrator kit that includes 16 extra electrodes.

    John

  4. Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    Quote Originally Posted by neuroasis View Post
    I have used that technique before, even to make sessions that more closely model the flow of EEG readings in meditation. A valuable feature in the Enterprise version and a good one for research.
    I've been in contact with Transparent and they have been very generous with me on their upgrade policy. That would not make the Enterprise edition of MWS out of the question for me. However, I am intrigued to learn what the difference in the EEG functions of the various versions are. For example, what can you do with the Enterprise edition that you can't due with Pro? Also, is there actually any real access to the raw (or filtered) EEG in any of the versions?

    Thanks in advance,

    John

  5. Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    Thanks, Andy!

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    I think in general people in a lab environment, where personnel is doing the setup, prep and breakdown, the EPOC probably fares better. This of course is not who it is marketed to. For individual hobbyists who are responsible for all these tasks and are the subject of the study, it is too much of an undertaking and alters one's mood (and increases stress levels I think) It is ridiculous at its face to think that any gamer would undergo this prior to play.

    I have also used Ten20 with it and it did improve the readings a bit, maybe, but really made the sponges messy. Now, I have a shaven head so usually EEG setup for me is really simple, but I find that actually the EPOC might not work as well in this case. It makes the contact of the electrodes very important as there is no other channel (like wet hair) for conductance. I have sometimes resorted to surgical pads and tape. Again, after all this, it takes longer to settle down to meditate and often I might even have to rehydrate the pads in the middle of a long meditation.

    Active electrodes are where it is at... simple hassle free, with only the crazy chain of cables being the annoying factor.

    I've been in contact with Transparent and they have been very generous with me on their upgrade policy. That would not make the Enterprise edition of MWS out of the question for me. However, I am intrigued to learn what the difference in the EEG functions of the various versions are. For example, what can you do with the Enterprise edition that you can't due with Pro? Also, is there actually any real access to the raw (or filtered) EEG in any of the versions?
    The Transparent staff are good people..

    I have to say though that I am not the best person to compare MWS versions. I have used Enterprise for so long, I just take it for granted. But here is the feature matrix: http://www.transparentcorp.com/produ...comparison.php

    From reading it, I would say that the realtime export we have been discussing and the inclusion of external EEG software like BioEra and BioExplorer are the big ones in that context.

    All of the raw EEG readings from each sensor are available from the EPOC (or maybe somewhat filtered, not absolutely sure about that) Also, Emotiv's sensory scale readings are available too. I would say that all the same data you can get from the Research SDK is available. The main thing is that with Mind Workstation you can USE this data, instead of just viewing it.
    Last edited by neuroasis; 06-13-2014 at 11:56 AM.
    If you know something I don't, speak up! If maybe I know something you don't, ask away!

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    That's another thing that annoys me to no end... $80 for a bag of felt pads. That is beyond outrageous and says they are not serious about people actively using the system. Anyway, I don't mean to be so snarky but this is the real facts about the Emotiv EPOC.
    If you know something I don't, speak up! If maybe I know something you don't, ask away!

  8. Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    Well, I just purchased a NeuroSky unit from Amazon and will receive it on Monday (today is Friday for historical purposes). Before I decide to invest in either the Enterprise edition of MWS or an additional $299 standard EPOC headset, I have to get some idea of what I can do with any system I end up with. I will have 12 days remaining on my MWS trial in which to play with things in the simplest (one-electrode) environment possible. That will give me time to try all the possible permutations among EPOC/NeuroSky and MWS. It would really be great if the NeuroSky would do what I currently need even if I need Enterprise MWS to get there. It would be a lot easier asking for $8K in startup funds (100 NeuroSky units) than $30K (100 EPOC units).

    You guys have all been, and continue to be an amazing amount of help. Between you and Aaron at Transparent, I might actually figure out what I need to do before the end of next week.

    Thank you all,

    John

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    Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    Neurosky headsets are only marginally useful. I considered them much more of a biofeedback system than a true EEG. It is not only the single electrode, this is actually very convenient, even with limited data most people will get a lot more usage than a more complex system. Mind Workstation supports it really well and again puts the signals to good use.

    The problem with the Neurosky setup is that the 'raw' values have no relationship to any real world measure. You cannot extract any type of frequency information and must only treat this data as a relative unit. The eSense values (or whatever they call them) are better viewed as relative biofeedback values. All sessions that I design for Neurosky units take an initial reading and then alter parameters in contrast to that.
    If you know something I don't, speak up! If maybe I know something you don't, ask away!

  10. Default Re: Spectrastrobe, Kasina & Mind Workstation

    Quote Originally Posted by neuroasis View Post
    Neurosky headsets are only marginally useful. I considered them much more of a biofeedback system than a true EEG.
    We have been obtaining 'research quality' EEG with the Neurosky device.

    The problem with the Neurosky setup is that the 'raw' values have no relationship to any real world measure. You cannot extract any type of frequency information and must only treat this data as a relative unit. The eSense values (or whatever they call them) are better viewed as relative biofeedback values. All sessions that I design for Neurosky units take an initial reading and then alter parameters in contrast to that.
    Quality EEG recording can be done from the Neurosky device. Here's what we are currently doing. First, we found OpenVibe, a modular brain-machine interface development environment sponsored by the French govt. OpenVibe consists of a series of modules, of which we only use the EEG acquisition client, the draw EEG on screen module, and the write the raw data to disk as a .csv file module. The acquisition client is, indeed, modular. It allows acquisition modules to be independently constructed for particular hardware. A number of clinical and research EEG devices are supported, and OpenVibe currently supports both Neurosky (non-mobile versions only) and Epoc (SDK 1.x only).

    As far as collecting 'research quality' EEG. Here is what we are doing with the Neurosky. First, our current interest is in looking at changes in the Alpha band. In this regard the Neurosky headset is ideal. If worn backwards, it is possible to put the electrode over the middle of the occipital cortex at the location that would be o0, if that electrode location was part of the 10/20 system (i.e., midway between o1 and o2). We then collect the EEG data using OpenVibe. When the OpenVibe template is closed it saves the .csv file to the HDD. All that is necessary to prepare the ,csv file for Matlab is to remove the first line of the .csv header file with Excel. Another neuroscientist and myself constructed a Matlab routine that reads the .csv file, subtracts out the DC offset and then performs an FFT on the data. The routine plots a power/frequency chart for the data. It then goes into the FFT and extracts the relative power within the Alpha, Theta, Delta, Beta and Gamma bands and writes them to the screen. We save the data as a .jpg that includes both the plot and the band-fraction data.

    As I said, the EEG we get from the Neurosky compares very consistently with the EPOC and a a Brainmaster clinical EEG that we occasionally have access to. So for $89, the Neurosky is definitely the most inexpensive EEG device available.

    I will be happy to post the Matlab routine and some instructions in its use if anybody is interested.

    Currently, we are setting up Mind Workstation to control the music and Kasina visual stimulation. I anticipate that we will begin collecting experimental data from subjects around January.

    John

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