Open EEG

**Andy** · 05-27-2011, 10:01 AM

Sounds like another good blog topic!

**Robert Austin** · 05-29-2011, 03:55 PM

Hey, Neuroasis--curious what your experience of the EPOC has been, and what software you are using to acquire data?

Quite a contrast to the Neurosky device, though that has the distinct advantage of being cheap, and the disadvantage of not communicating raw waveforms or FFTs but instead, a 0-100 'score' (at least, last time I checked...).

**neuroasis** · 06-02-2011, 07:08 PM

Man, I want to like the Emotiv EPOC. It just drives me crazy to be honest with you.

First off, it is really fidgety and pokey... I know those are not technical terms but this thing is like wearing....ummm... you know those great big salad tossers (no...not that salad tossing).. the tong-link things? It's like putting those on your head!

It doesn't have dry sensors. Just these little foam pads that when it came from the factory weren't mounted right. I spent the first day with it looking on the floor for little tiny black foam balls that had a unique skill of traveling vast distances and hiding in the most obscure places. No, there isn't any extras so if you lose one you are screwed. (some people on the forum have been using cotton balls) I cursed this thing a thousand times until I figured out that I needed to reinsert all the pads from the bottom to lock them on these little teeth and then so far they have been ok.

There is a lot of assembly and dis-assembly as you have to insert and remove each one of the pads to keep them hydrated in a case. This is not the most fun thing to do. There is not enough space between the pads when they are locked in the case for my size fingers and it is like a puzzle box because of this. Then when you go to put them on the unit it is like putting finger cymbals on an octopus.

So once that is all done, you sit down in front of the computer and wiggle thoughts around in your head hoping in some remote fashion that there is some relationship between what you thinking and what this squirrely little box is doing on the screen. You can watch demo videos of the interface to see what I am talking about. For the life of me I can not yet correlate proper triggers to achieve any measure of repeatability or consistency. It is frustrating because you don't know how to self correct. There is really no feedback of what exactly is being sensed so strategy is non existent.

I decided to give up on strategy completely and treat it as if it was a pendulum and let my subconscious observe the screen response and figure what to do to trigger it on its own. This met with a bit more success but is a long process. Thus the delay in reviewing. I am continuing to pursue this method.

The gyro control works well and using it to control mouse movement is feasible but you really have to be steady when you reach the item that you want to click on for instance. Face recognition works good as well but it seems to actually be using the muscles behind your ears as a sensing mechanism. So that limits it quite a bit. My means of frowning often isn't enough to register that is until I got really mad at it and then it worked ok for a bit.

I have the greatest piece of software to use for it, the 3D desktop program 3DNA. This is a no goal, no stress program that is really customizable, inspiring and useful. Although old (and I believe the company has gone under now) it is still really ahead of its time and runs better and better on newer hardware. I am continuing work with that.

The games that they have included are ridiculous because they are games. In Pong for instance you never can make the paddle move so you just lose after a few tries. Not encouraging nor inspiring or any way to learn. The floating thing is better but again what are you actually doing to make the damned thing move?

For the brain interface, the gain is really touchy between 'light up my brain like a virus outbreak map' or 'how's that coma thingy workin' out for ya?' I want to work on this more still but....between open case, squirt saline, solve puzzle box, accessorize octopus, salad toss head, find happy magic spots for pokey foam pads, try to cognitively cajole box into moving sensibly, practice stiff neck mouse acrobatics, fail at Pong again.... after all that I'm just not that inspired.

However, I am persistent so I'll report back.

One more thing and this is big, Big, BIG... you cannot lay down while wearing the octopus because of the transmitter in the back... that is a major buzz-kill.... Also, you can't wear normal headphones with it. Earbuds, only...

My initial assessment is... forget this thing as a gaming controller. No kid would endure this crap just to get frustrated by random controller movements. I am a big boy so I expect a learning curve and am willing to try..

Sorry to sound harsh...but I have waited and worked before speaking. So it is not without repeat observances.

**Marisa** · 06-03-2011, 12:56 PM

There are a couple of obstacles personal EEG machines need to overcome and it looks like the Emotiv hasn't hit the mark. The electrodes and conductivity - that's an obstacle. It's too bad, I thought the saline pads would put an end to the messy EEG goop. Guess not. The other problem is electrode placement. Different locations on the head will give different readings and not all heads are created equal - so a cap with the electrodes placed may sometimes work but not always.

I haven't played much with EEG (yet) but will have the opportunity to do so soon so we can compare notes.

Thank you for the update on the machine. I look forward to seeing if progress can happen or if it ends up being a paperweight.

M.

**brewmasher** · 06-04-2011, 08:07 AM

Thanks for the initial review neuroasis. I'm wondering if you got the 3D Brain map and how that works using AVE.

**Mackeydoc** · 06-06-2011, 06:40 AM

I have been using the Neurosky Mindet. It focuses on FP3 primarily although with some manipulation you can access two points higher up on the forehead. I have been using the Mindset with BioExplorer software and find it very interesting so far. Only a couple weeks with the unit. The Mindset technology is evolving and hopefully the manufacturer will add sensor location to the unit. It is self contained and uses permanent sensor technology! I would like to see some development with the Procyon or Proteues units for optimization of EEG using AVE technologies.
Mackeydoc

**brewmasher** · 07-29-2011, 07:45 AM

O.K. I've been playing around with the Emotiv for about a week now. My reaction with the set up and the tiny foam pads were similar to Neuroasais, but that's where it ends. I think the unit is the coolest thing since motorized Erector sets!

Tip: once you get all those black buggers installed correctly (do a long alpha session before doing this), leave them in and use a dropper bottle to rehydrate with saline each time you use it. You will use more saline, but heck, salt water is cheap. If I had to put those pads in and take them out after each use, I would send the unit back.

If you like to lay down when using AVE, you will need some neck pillows to keep your head elevated. Wearing light frames is not a problem, but you will not be able to use over the ear headphones. I have a pair of Koss sport phones that clip on your ears and work great.

Sensor placement is not limited to the standard set up. Emotiv recommends tilting the headset way back to get better SMR readings. You can even put the headset on backwards for different sensor placements. Once you give the pads a real soaking, I have had no problems getting 100% signals.

The 3D brain map is way cool. It won't tell you specific frequencies, but will give you intensities of beta, alpha, theta and delta. Check out your brainwave patterns, do a session, then look at them again. Surprise! AVE works! You will even be able to record your patterns during a session, and see how you reacted to them. I've had hours of fun observing my BW patterns while doing chi kung, working, eating, or using aromatherapy. You can use the Thoughtstream to see how your BW patterns correlate to GSR. Amaze your friends! Turn the gain down when they put the headset on and prove to them how brain dead they really are

This software is worth the extra $$.

Transparent is about to release a (free) software upgrade incorporating Emotiv (also Neurosky) into their Mind Workstation Enterprise program. Then the sky is the limit!

**Abbey** · 09-16-2011, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by neuroasis

Yes, I've had it for a couple of weeks now. Not the most favorable first impressions. I am trying to give it a fair chance though. I will respond in more detail in the near future.

Neuroasis,

I'm very interested in any good or bad that you have discovered with the EPOC.

Jeff