Inventorying submodalities

[Replicon]

One thing I've always had trouble with when playing around with NLP is figuring out my own key submodalities. One thing I want to use my Proteus for is helping to get me into a state where I can better observe these things. I'm talking about figuring out the differences in how the picture and sounds form in my head when thinking about things I like, things I dislike, things I believe strongly, things I believe weakly, timeline, etc.

When I think of examples, I can't seem to figure out what those differences are, either because I'm not creating strong enough feelings/images, I'm not looking for the right things, or because I'm sabotaging the results by being in a different mindset (trying to notice), which interferes with the natural occurrence of this stuff (kinda like how it's much harder to really notice your own eye accessing cues if you're consciously trying to notice yourself doing them).

Has anyone else here gotten good results doing this? What were your strategies? I'm thinking of firing up something like P28 (mind/body awareness), which seems to be just the right thing. Or maybe some of the visualization ones (22, 33-37), while focusing on the visual aspects of my thoughts, and hopefully catching a useful difference in submodalities. I've had no luck with "position" of the image thus far.

[Marisa]

Hi Replicon,

One thing I've always had trouble with when playing around with NLP is figuring out my own key submodalities. One thing I want to use my Proteus for is helping to get me into a state where I can better observe these things. I'm talking about figuring out the differences in how the picture and sounds form in my head when thinking about things I like, things I dislike, things I believe strongly, things I believe weakly, timeline, etc.

When I think of examples, I can't seem to figure out what those differences are, either because I'm not creating strong enough feelings/images, I'm not looking for the right things, or because I'm sabotaging the results by being in a different mindset (trying to notice), which interferes with the natural occurrence of this stuff (kinda like how it's much harder to really notice your own eye accessing cues if you're consciously trying to notice yourself doing them).

Has anyone else here gotten good results doing this? What were your strategies? I'm thinking of firing up something like P28 (mind/body awareness), which seems to be just the right thing. Or maybe some of the visualization ones (22, 33-37), while focusing on the visual aspects of my thoughts, and hopefully catching a useful difference in submodalities. I've had no luck with "position" of the image thus far.

On the one hand, inducing a Theta state of mind would make it easier to access memories or deep rooted beliefs, feelings etc. On the other hand, Theta may not be the best state for analysis. If you want to try the Theta route, P23 to 26 would be good.

A second way to do things, if plan A doesn't work - is to induce a Alpha/SMR state which is better for concentration and thinking. P38 to 42

Are you working with a list of submodalities or are you trying to do it from memory?

I think the key lies in what questions you ask yourself about the subject in question. I usually work with my lead system (which is Ad) as so in order for me to figure something out, I need to have a conversation with my self about it. I do tend to work on a more general scale and my process is different when I am doing change work than when I am trying to figure out something about myself.

You would not believe how many times I've written, deleted and rewritten my response. lol

Anyway, I hope this helps. I would be most interested to learn which program works best for you and get more details from you about your work with submodalities.

P.S. Happy New Year.

M.

[Replicon]

Hi Marisa,

Thanks for the detailed response! I'll give the theta approach a go first.

I have a list of submodalities, but I wasn't planning on looking at it one element at a time. I'm planning on flipping between the beliefs or whatever and noticing whatever the differences between them are. I suppose I may have to break it down further if I don't get anywhere useful at first.

I just want to really get this down so that I can maximize the benefits of what I get out of Bandler in 2 weeks in Mexico.

I'll be sure to let you know what interesting things I find out. I know I'm mainly a visual problem solver, and I know I can get my Ad on as well - when I'm going on a long walk and get lost inside my head, it's like I'm talking... but not so much having a conversation with myself, as explaining things to a large group of people... it's weird.


By the way, is there a document that more clearly describes what all the programs induce, and what they're meant to do? I would not have thought something labeled "Energy" would be an Alpha program. I'd have expected that to be more of a Gamma/Hypergamma thing.

Yes, Happy New Year! You have no idea just how many dents I'm going to put into this decade!

[Marisa]

Hi Marisa,

Thanks for the detailed response! I'll give the theta approach a go first.

I have a list of submodalities, but I wasn't planning on looking at it one element at a time. I'm planning on flipping between the beliefs or whatever and noticing whatever the differences between them are. I suppose I may have to break it down further if I don't get anywhere useful at first.

I just want to really get this down so that I can maximize the benefits of what I get out of Bandler in 2 weeks in Mexico.

You get to go to Mexico and see Bandler in action - I'm jealous.

I'll be sure to let you know what interesting things I find out. I know I'm mainly a visual problem solver, and I know I can get my Ad on as well - when I'm going on a long walk and get lost inside my head, it's like I'm talking... but not so much having a conversation with myself, as explaining things to a large group of people... it's weird.

Do you really think that's weird? It doesn't sound weird to me but then I talk to myself all the time and even respond to my own comments or questions. LOL Now there's internal dialog for you. LOL Please do let me know how the Mexico-Bandler-tequila-don't-drink-the-water tour goes.

By the way, is there a document that more clearly describes what all the programs induce, and what they're meant to do? I would not have thought something labeled "Energy" would be an Alpha program. I'd have expected that to be more of a Gamma/Hypergamma thing.

Hyper-gamma would likely induce a feeling of anxiousness instead of energy. A little bit of gamma (short bursts) can be useful though. See attached for the list you asked for.

Yes, Happy New Year! You have no idea just how many dents I'm going to put into this decade!

You are right ... I have no idea.

M.

[CraigT]

"Inventorying submodalities" - I am so going to have to work that phrase into a conversation some time this week

Cheers,
Craig

[Replicon]

Ok, well I've had *some* luck with my endeavor here, but not a whole lot. On the one hand, I get the impression that all the images are in the same location, with the same parameters, which is really bad for swishability. I'm associated on all of them that I've played with. On the other hand, I also feel like my ability to get into it and see what I saw, hear what I heard, and feel what I felt is weaker than it needs to be. Like I should be able to visualize more vividly.

There's all this talk about, "how do YOU know the difference between something that's really there and something you imagine/hallucinate" and people come up with answers like, "well, there's a border around things I imagine" but for me, it's as simple as, "I have to expend energy to override the input coming to my brain and place something there that isn't" so it's more the fact that it's fleeting. I might just need to meditate more.

Also, I haven't *yet* had much luck with things that intensify feelings (e.g. "spinning your feelings") because I am having trouble hallucinating those good feelings enough to be able to tell their "direction" in the first place.

Admittedly, as far as Proteus is concerned, I've only been doing the ~15 minute versions of the programs, and I should probably move up to 30. I can sit still for that time easily (though my leg falls asleep after 25, which is no fun). I probably just need to find the right frequencies that really help me intensify imagined feelings, sights and sounds.

Marisa - you seem very wise in the ways of these things, so any advice you have for me, I'll gladly try. I'm totally open here.

Anyone - I'm running a Linux laptop at home. Has anyone been able to get the software to work under wine, with a USB->RS232 cable of sorts? I saw the thread about getting Procyon to work under Linux by doing some kernel hackery. I'd like to avoid having to rebuild my kernel if at all possible. Actually I've got a Windows2000 instance I can run in virtualbox so that shouldn't be TOO much of an issue. :-)

[Marisa]

Hi Replicon,

Ok, well I've had *some* luck with my endeavor here, but not a whole lot. On the one hand, I get the impression that all the images are in the same location, with the same parameters, which is really bad for swishability. I'm associated on all of them that I've played with. On the other hand, I also feel like my ability to get into it and see what I saw, hear what I heard, and feel what I felt is weaker than it needs to be. Like I should be able to visualize more vividly.

Hmmm I know what you mean on the swish thing. I think like most people there are some NLP tools that work better for some than others. What I do play with in the swish area that does work is to "white out" the undesirable screen and then turn the color up but replace the picture with something desirable. While I may be able to white out the undesirable picture, I don't always have luck in bringing up another picture so I describe what that desirable picture is to myself in as much detail as I can imagine. An auditory way to visualize.

I am not really good at associating into memories or feelings. I tend to live in Meta land. I can get into what ever state I want though by telling myself about how I felt. Essentially I can talk myself into and out of many things.

I do lots of change work while I sleep. Sounds odd, I know. When my sleep cycle is lightest or I am semi-awakened by something that bothers me, I do all kinds of NLP techniques to work through it. In this state I am better able to visualize but my choice of change work usually is in the "change personal history" realm. I rewind the movie and redo it in a way I like. I also do lots of (self) hypnosis lots to set "programs".

What's nice about something like NLP is that we have a variety of tools to choose from and when one thing doesn't work, we can modify it or try something else. Sometimes I go through a few things until I hit upon something that works.

There's all this talk about, "how do YOU know the difference between something that's really there and something you imagine/hallucinate" and people come up with answers like, "well, there's a border around things I imagine" but for me, it's as simple as, "I have to expend energy to override the input coming to my brain and place something there that isn't" so it's more the fact that it's fleeting. I might just need to meditate more.

Ya, I guess my grasp of reality isn't as solid as a visual border. It doesn't help that I know how easily we hallucinate so sensory experience doesn't necessarily correspond with reality. Perception tends to create reality. Oh that's my reality strategy ... it has to make sense to me.

Also, I haven't *yet* had much luck with things that intensify feelings (e.g. "spinning your feelings") because I am having trouble hallucinating those good feelings enough to be able to tell their "direction" in the first place.

I have tried this one and had a bit of luck in noticing some difference when I circulate the feelings in one direction or the other. While I notice a slight difference, it's not enough to make me use this system lots.

I really like Bandler's method of imagining a "Stop" sign or "Do not Enter" when my thoughts go to an undesirable place. I also add voice to it also (no surprise there).

Reframing is one of my favorite change methods.

Admittedly, as far as Proteus is concerned, I've only been doing the ~15 minute versions of the programs, and I should probably move up to 30. I can sit still for that time easily (though my leg falls asleep after 25, which is no fun). I probably just need to find the right frequencies that really help me intensify imagined feelings, sights and sounds.

My favorite program(s) on the Proteus (when I use the lights and sound as opposed to just sound) are: P8 and P10. I also really like the Alpha program that I recently wrote. I use the sound only Alpha Beta program that I wrote lots. If you want to try those programs, they are downloadable under the "Sessions" section.

Marisa - you seem very wise in the ways of these things, so any advice you have for me, I'll gladly try. I'm totally open here.

Aw gosh thanks. What a nice thing to say. This conversation has me thinking that perhaps we get the best results when we work with our strongest sense and/or adapt the process so that it incorporates or works with your strongest sense. What are your thoughts on this?

M.

[Replicon]

I'll have to try out the whiting out approach to swishing. I remember reading about another approach where your resourceful state image is nice and big, and the thing you'd like to be resourceful is tiny in one of the corners, and you swish by increasing its size until it covers the good one. That might work well too, because I'd expect the nice, resourceful, happy, blissful ones to be the most vivid.

When my sleep cycle is lightest or I am semi-awakened by something that bothers me, I do all kinds of NLP techniques to work through it. In this state I am better able to visualize but my choice of change work usually is in the "change personal history" realm.

BRILLIANT! Now that you mention it, I do sometimes (very rarely though) find myself half-awake (usually in the morning, just as I'm waking up - if there wasn't an alarm), and in that state, when I close my eyes, I can visualize things VERY vividly. But then, I usually start entering the vibrations of your body starting to fall back asleep while your mind is awake (akin to when you do wake-induced lucid dreaming), but I end up completely waking up afterwards.

This got me thinking... maybe if I do things like set an early alarm and practice the ol' LD techniques, I could get somewhere. Lucid dreaming is probably one of the most powerful changework tools there is.

I really like Bandler's method of imagining a "Stop" sign or "Do not Enter" when my thoughts go to an undesirable place. I also add voice to it also (no surprise there).

I haven't heard of that one before, but I bet it works great! For that one, I've had pretty good luck with the "shut the fuck up"/"so the fuck what" approach.

Reframing is one of my favorite change methods.

No surprise there either, since it involves talking to yourself a lot. I have had zero responses when asking my subconscious to give me a sign (or at least, nothing I've noticed it do). I would LOVE to get reframing to work for me, since you get a positive "yes, I'll try out some new strategies" from your unconscious.

Aw gosh thanks. What a nice thing to say. This conversation has me thinking that perhaps we get the best results when we work with our strongest sense and/or adapt the process so that it incorporates or works with your strongest sense. What are your thoughts on this?

I think the strongest sense thing makes a lot of sense. I'm still pretty convinced that's visual for me, since all my problem solving (job, math, etc.) is visual, and I aways like to lay out my plan for stuff. I can't even keep up with a cookbook recipe properly if I don't first draw it out as a flowchart. Plus I spell visually. But I've got some auditory stuff, and a few kinesthetic strategies as well (when I teach Taekwondo forms, I project myself into someone who is performing it, as if I were the puppeteer, and at the slightest mistake, I feel it kinesthetically... cause it's as if my body is doing something I didn't tell it to do, if that makes sense).

Going back to the half-asleep thing - How do you consistently induce that half asleep state? Does it just happen to you naturally, and you've trained yourself to catch yourself when in that state so you can do change work, or was there a way you discovered that allowed you to get into that state consistently at night?

My oh my, I ask a lot of questions

[Marisa]

I'll have to try out the whiting out approach to swishing. I remember reading about another approach where your resourceful state image is nice and big, and the thing you'd like to be resourceful is tiny in one of the corners, and you swish by increasing its size until it covers the good one. That might work well too, because I'd expect the nice, resourceful, happy, blissful ones to be the most vivid.

I also read or heard about one where you imagine yourself on a diving board diving into the pool (which is the desired image or feeling).

BRILLIANT! Now that you mention it, I do sometimes (very rarely though) find myself half-awake (usually in the morning, just as I'm waking up - if there wasn't an alarm), and in that state, when I close my eyes, I can visualize things VERY vividly. But then, I usually start entering the vibrations of your body starting to fall back asleep while your mind is awake (akin to when you do wake-induced lucid dreaming), but I end up completely waking up afterwards.

Just in case you don't know this: That twilight stage that you are describing is the time that your subconscious mind is most susceptible to suggestion. So it's the best time for self hypnosis.

For that one, I've had pretty good luck with the "shut the fuck up"/"so the fuck what" approach.

I used the "Shut the fuck up" one the other day with great success.

No surprise there either, since it involves talking to yourself a lot. I have had zero responses when asking my subconscious to give me a sign (or at least, nothing I've noticed it do). I would LOVE to get reframing to work for me, since you get a positive "yes, I'll try out some new strategies" from your unconscious.

You're thinking about something like a 6 step reframe. I was talking about reframing in general (changing how one perceives something by changing the perspective). On that note ... while I don't have any luck with connecting with my s/c through body sensations, I have had success with using a pendulum. I have also used the Tarot as a tool to connect with my s/c.

Visual squash ... that's a great technique for resolving indecision. Have you ever tried that technique?

I think the strongest sense thing makes a lot of sense. I'm still pretty convinced that's visual for me, since all my problem solving (job, math, etc.) is visual, and I aways like to lay out my plan for stuff. I can't even keep up with a cookbook recipe properly if I don't first draw it out as a flowchart. Plus I spell visually. But I've got some auditory stuff, and a few kinesthetic strategies as well (when I teach Taekwondo forms, I project myself into someone who is performing it, as if I were the puppeteer, and at the slightest mistake, I feel it kinesthetically... cause it's as if my body is doing something I didn't tell it to do, if that makes sense).

That's a neat strategy with the Taekwondo form. I used some kinesthetic journey line stuff in the past with myself and clients (back when I saw clients). It's really good for trying on different futures, healing past stuff and decision making.

Which reminds me - one technique we were taught which is kind of cool is to look back on your past (journey line) and then see all of the negative experiences or feelings (insecurity, hurt etc.) appear on the path as black dots. Imagine all the learnings you received from these experiences as sparkles that rise and so all that is left on the path is the black yukie mess of dots. Then you imagine one of those sticky tape rolls, like the ones you use to pick up lint or pet hair and imagine it rolled back over, picking up all the black dots. I like to imagine a big vacuum cleaner that sucks up all the black dots and then I send the canister into space and blow it up.

Going back to the half-asleep thing - How do you consistently induce that half asleep state? Does it just happen to you naturally, and you've trained yourself to catch yourself when in that state so you can do change work, or was there a way you discovered that allowed you to get into that state consistently at night?

A long time ago, I studied the work of Carlos Castaneda and he wrote about lucid dreaming (except he didn't call it that) and suggested to look at your hands when you are dreaming to get control over the dream. Well, I tried to do this and sometimes I had success and many times I did not. Then I noticed that some dreams were like a movie where I was simultaneously in them as well as observing them and then one day I noticed that if something happened in the dream that I didn't like, I'd rewind that part of the dream and replay it with the outcome I wanted. So while I do not have much luck with being in the dream and creating adventures ... I can rewind and edit adventures. The editing is tied to strong enough emotions generated by the dream that seem to bring me into more awareness.

I'm naturally a very light sleeper and because of having Fibromyalgia, I could stay in a light enough state through out the night to be close to awareness at any time. While this is great for lucid dreaming, it's not good for restorative sleep and so I take sleep and FM meds which is likely why I don't tend to wake up unless some thought or dream has disturbed me.

The being able to do the programming work throughout the night when my sleep cycle gets to the lighter stage has gotten easier with practice. It's a matter of remembering that you want to affirm something. In this case, you want to keep the instructions very simple and direct.

My oh my, I ask a lot of questions

And because of that, look at the great conversation that you have inspired.

M.

[Replicon]

I also read or heard about one where you imagine yourself on a diving board diving into the pool (which is the desired image or feeling).

I can see that working. I guess these are really "half-swish" in a way. You're putting stuff into the resourceful submodality, without focusing on moving it out of the old place.

Just in case you don't know this: That twilight stage that you are describing is the time that your subconscious mind is most susceptible to suggestion. So it's the best time for self hypnosis.

That makes me want to repro it even more

Visual squash ... that's a great technique for resolving indecision. Have you ever tried that technique?

Never heard of it! Google reveals it's an anchor-collapsing thing though. I'll look into it.

Which reminds me - one technique we were taught which is kind of cool is to look back on your past (journey line) and then see all of the negative experiences or feelings (insecurity, hurt etc.) appear on the path as black dots. Imagine all the learnings you received from these experiences as sparkles that rise and so all that is left on the path is the black yukie mess of dots. Then you imagine one of those sticky tape rolls, like the ones you use to pick up lint or pet hair and imagine it rolled back over, picking up all the black dots. I like to imagine a big vacuum cleaner that sucks up all the black dots and then I send the canister into space and blow it up.

Hahaha that's really cool! I like those visual metaphors. When I'm cleaning up my place, I like to pretend it's the clutter in my mind. What sort of results can you expect with the black dots method?

A long time ago, I studied the work of Carlos Castaneda and he wrote about lucid dreaming (except he didn't call it that) and suggested to look at your hands when you are dreaming to get control over the dream. Well, I tried to do this and sometimes I had success and many times I did not. Then I noticed that some dreams were like a movie where I was simultaneously in them as well as observing them and then one day I noticed that if something happened in the dream that I didn't like, I'd rewind that part of the dream and replay it with the outcome I wanted. So while I do not have much luck with being in the dream and creating adventures ... I can rewind and edit adventures. The editing is tied to strong enough emotions generated by the dream that seem to bring me into more awareness.

Looking at my hands is my most reliable reality check, from back when I was playing around with LD. My right hand always has some deformity (7-9 fingers, some small some gigantic). I should totally get back into LD. Before, when I used to play with it, I wasn't actually aware that there was such a thing as NLP, DHE, etc.

And because of that, look at the great conversation that you have inspired.

It IS an interesting conversation. By the way, the mind sauna left a really interesting ringing in my ear that lasted quite a while. Kind of like some car alarm was going off in the distance. In fact, I had to open my window to see if I was just hearing something outside haha.