Holosync meditation CD's... Entrainment used methodically?

Hey guys, so I have been checking out some meditation CD's just for fun, and I cam across some binaural beat programs... there is one in particular which i am curious about, as reportedy if the directions are followed, it will take several years or so to complete all the levels...

I have absolutely no interest in buying these CD's as they are quite expensive, but what I am interested in is their entrainment protocol...

They have this system where you have to listen to the sessions in a particular order, and im not sure, but I think it gradually introduces the brain to different frequencies...

here is a copy and past of the instructions I found online for the first level, Awakening Prologue:

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1. Listen to the introduction track. (The Awakening)

2. Listen to "The Dive" once each day (30 minutes) sitting with eyes closed, for 14 days. Do not listen to "Immersion" (yet).

3. After 14 days, listen to "The Dive" followed by "Immersion," making a one-hour listening session.

4. After 4 weeks you can extend the session by listening to "Immersion" twice. making a 1.5 hour session (This is optional).

Then you move on to Awakening level 1,2,3,4, Purification 1,2,3,4, and then flowering 1,2,3,4

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Im more curious as to why the rigorous sequence, and how they progress you through the frequencies? any one have any idea? Any one ever use these CD's?

At this point in time, I have only scratched the surface of the kasina. I would like to get into a more structured routine with specific goals, but I have no clue how to progress... right now im using it in a purely situational manner... if I need an energy boost, I listen to an accelerate session, if I want to go to sleep, night voyage etc...

The thing I am not sure on, is how to use entrainment in a methodical manner so as to get maximum benefit... even if I could see the frequencies of the holocync sessions as an example of progression that would help, but I cant find a program summary anywhere...

If you understand what im trying to ask, great!
If not let me know and I will try and clarify...

Cheers!
Aaron

Earlier in my AVS studies about 10-12 years ago I went through the first 2 levels of the Holosync program methodically for several months 1 hour per day... (I had ticks whenever I heard windchimes after that for a while :) ) Then after that the big hidden 'charges' for the system kicked in. Custom cd's with subliminals... etc. Hundreds of dollars in further investment. Yeah, no thank you, I had already achieved what I wanted which was a scheduled meditation time and the ability to move deep within myself beyond the external.

The goal of Holosync is to move you deeper and deeper toward waking Delta. It is a ramp down, down, down... This is a questionable practice. You might want to visit the Transparent forum and search for Holosync there. Interesting discussions.

Anyway, not down playing the system necessarily. As I said at that particular time it was the impetus for a deeper practice and I do certainly think a structured program is a good thing. We plan to do this.

Scott

Thanks! I checked out some of the threads at transparent, and I guess a more important question would be: how do I determine which frequencies to use, and which frequencies to avoid?

It depends on what you want to achieve. I think the first task of any program should be determining and recognizing your key alpha rhythm. Then slowly moving it up and down. This requires some instruction and for really personalized results, extra tools like an OpenEEG system. That is another discussion.

I think the first steps are learning to entrain.

I know people really want this instruction... damn, if I just could find more time. It is coming but there are some necessary pieces that have to be in place for web delivery and feedback/consultation type things.. Also I am evaluating different EEG tech to find the most robust and affordable. The obvious candidates don't hold up IMHO. If it weren't for slooooowwww China shipping i would already be much further along.

Give me a day or so and I'll make an Alpha Sweeping program which is a good first step. BTW, this is in a queue with some instructional video requests I have to fulfill..

Key alpha rhythm eh?

Can that be determined experientially? I dont mean to bog you down with more things to do, but can you provide a quick summary on how to figure that out? I can play around with KBS but I dont really know what to look for...

Actually never mind, I found something on CraigT's blog that outlines that:

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From CraigT's Blog:
...In practice, individuals will have a natural dominant alpha frequency between 9.5Hz and 10.5Hz and tuning sessions to the individual does enhance their effectiveness. Units like the Proteus have a User Mode which very conveniently allows you to ?scan? through frequencies to find ?sweet spots?. A good indication of your dominant alpha frequency can be found by using User Mode with the lights set bright and sweeping through 9-11Hz and noticing when your eyes start quivering and wanting to blink (even though they?re closed) ? my experiments suggest that the most powerful blink impulse corresponds to the individual?s dominant alpha.

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Looks like ive got a little experimenting to do :)

Just a quick question: lets say I want to set up a deep delta protocol like holosync on my kasina; if I wanted to avoid possible issues with the constant ramping down, would it be wise to ramp up to my key alpha rhythm at the end of each session? Or would that just negate the whole entrainment protocol?

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Originally Posted by neuroasis

...I do certainly think a structured program is a good thing. We plan to do this.

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Cant wait to see this :)

I forget Aaron do you have any of the Transparent products? I ask because there is a Holosync simulation program contributed by a user in the Member's Area.

no i dont, not yet anyway...

I'll check it out. I haven't in a while but I remember it being there. Maybe I will output it as SpectraStrobe.

I went through level 1 Holosync ~10 years ago. I followed it religiously for ~9 months and found it to be a waste of time. I also got a little tired of the marketing pressure they (Centerpointe) apply to try to get you to buy in to the rest of their program (which can end up costing you +$1,000's btw).

The good thing was that it had a 12 month money-back guarantee so I did get my $'s back (less shipping, of course). I actually found that program #11 on my Proteus (deep meditation) gave me much better results. I used it every morning for an hour before I got up and it worked great. Helped me work through a few stress related problems I was having at the time. I should emphasise that help = an aid, not a cure! Beware of products that imply that they are a magic bullet (Mindplace does not do this).

Like neuroasis said, there are a number of Holosync look-alike sessions in the Transparent members area (Deep like a Zen Monk, by waverider) that have various delta levels that try to take you down various Delta levels starting at 2.5hz, proceeding (in 0.5hz increments) all the way down to 0.5hz. Add some windchimes and rain to these and I think they are a good approximation of the real thing. Whether or not the real thing is worthwhile or not is pretty questionable imho.

If you are interested in good meditation aids I would suggest exploring all the Kasina Spectrastrobe Meditation sessions. Have a look at their descriptions in your manual. I suggest starting off with Everglade 1-2 times per day for a few days. Then go to Forest and River 2-3 times per day for a few more days. Then go to Meditate 1-2 times a day. This one seems to me to be pretty close to my old Proteus Session #11 (Deep Meditate). These are just my personal suggestions and you may find other sessions/timeframes suit you better. Best thing you can do is experiment and see what works best for you.

If you are really interested in experimenting I suggest you pick up a copy to Transparent's NP3 Ultimate version (~$90). This gives you lots of great sessions that you can run and/or download/run on your Kasina. These can also edit these (lots of good tutorials on their website) to help fine-tune them to best suit you. It also gives you the opportunity to experiment with different entrainment waveforms like Binaural and Isochronic (do a bit of research yourself to find out the differences) and whether or not sound and light or, individually, just sound or light makes a difference to your results.

Try to remember that unlike air travel (intercontinental or overseas), the destination is not as important as the journey!

Unfortunately, I dont have as much time to use the Kasina during meditation as I would like... I am actually training towards my first set of vows (simple 3 refuge vows, Buddha Dharma, Sangha) at the moment, which requires a rather rigorous meditation practice... if my teacher knew I was using entrainment during zazen I would get hit im sure, lol ... But I like your recommendations and will give them a try during my free periods :)

Im currently training in Dogen Zenjis lineage of Soto Zen, (which he brought from China to japan in the 1200's), and whenever I see "meditate like a zen monk" as an advertising ploy, I cringe a little, lol... one of the many reasons holosync isnt getting my money... (not referring to the session you mentioned above, a session name vs. a marketing ploy are very different, IMHO)

Im more curious about setting up a goal oriented session (progression of sessions), and was just using holosync as an example...

However, I have some free meditation periods to play with techniques from other cultures, and this is when Im going to be playing with entrainment... Im just curious how a progression can be used to achieve a particular goal, as sometimes in my zazen, things come up that are really difficult to let go of (eg ive had this pesky muscle in my back that keeps knotting up during sitting for the last 10 years, but when I use a specific relaxation technique [shamatha meditation like kasina bhavana* or mindfulness of breath for example] it goes away)...

*yes im aware im using the word kasina here, I mean the Theravadin practice outlined in the Visuddhimagga of Buddhaghosa, not the avs machine, lol ... The fact that it was called Kasina is how I found it, I was searching for methods of kasina bhavana, or visual meditation and up popped mindplace.. and I was like "oh yeah, I wonder what they've come out with since the proteus." ... *click* ;)


My intention with the kasina (and AVS in general) is to help work on recurring issues that come up during zazen (and entertainment ;) )... Sometimes a more focused intention for a meditation period helps break through barriers that Im not allowing my self to fully work with because they are too difficult, or things that Im otherwise unconsciously avoiding... All these practices are just different ways of hitting a dusty pillow in sunlight, allowing the settled habits and tendencies to some fully into the light of awareness allowing one to see them more clearly and ultimately release them... and the more tools i have in the tool box the better...

As far as the journey vs. the destination, in Zen we have a saying: "the buddha was only half way there"...

and Dogen Zenji says "if one were to practice from beginningless time, to the end of innumerable mahakalpas, one could still not exhaust this practice of unlimited awakening"


I am getting more and more clear on how to use the kasina by the day, and there is actually a lot out there tucked away in the crevices of the internet... it takes a little searching, but they reveal themselves when needed... and you guys on the forum have been more than helpful :)


Mods, would it be possible to change the title displayed on the forum page to "Entrainment used methodically? (eg, Holosync)" as my question is more about general protocols than holosync specifically...

Cheers!
:)

One thing I have found in using AVS meditation vs. 'natural' meditation (for lack of a better term) is that AVS encourages an 'observer' state of mind. It is especially useful to learn to seek and appreciate beauty and awe, building gratitude. AVS I find to be a very heart opening and emotional experience. Over many years using it I have learned to move between 'participant' and 'observer'.

It was very similar to how when I was deeply involved in television production that I could watch programs from the viewpoint of the technician looking at lighting, set design, camera viewpoints, etc... Then also observe when I got lost in the story and the techniques at use melted away.

In 'natural' meditation we are confronted with only our internal chatter and body sensations. The highest barrier is overcoming these and looking for spaces between the sensation net. It really helps me to visualize it this way. That among the flow of the great ocean of being, we are suspended in a net of perception. The bindings of the net are very small in relation to the vast depths beyond. Yet we seem ensnared. Though, still, we are breathing, we are floating, we are exchanging nutrients, we are in, amongst, and of the whole... and its freedoms to be and become.

The chatter and body sensations can lessen a bit more easily with AVS as the 'tides' are made manifest and apparent, though still within our net. However, now being known we can begin to ride the tide and flow, float, being carried where the larger body traverses. We learn to resonate and not resist. We learn the pulse, not the purpose. We learn to be, rather than seek.

The training is about finding and aligning with the pulse, and incorporating, unbinding the net.

Scott, your description reminded me of the cover of "be here now" by Ram Dass:

Attachment 756



Abiding in nonabiding, or non-attachment to phenomena... In the lineage of Zen I practice, this is done by opening up to all the senses simultaneously...Kensho (glimpe of enlightenment) is a momentary look into this depth you speak of, beyond attachment to sensory phenomena, and existing as the space between all things... In this state of mind there are no boundaries, or edges one can find.. There are no more reference points for self image to grasp, and as a result, a direct dropping of bodymind into the luminosity of pure awareness... in Zen we chant:

Awareness is the only condition
All that is arises as the display of awareness
It is the seamless expanse of all that is

Like the sky... there can be clouds, and sun, but no matter what arises the sky is still sky... unstained by anything...
a mirror is also a good image, but in a mirror there is still a reflection of something... is Zen, there is a deepening of awakening called daikensho, (whereas kensho ultimately closes due to traces of grasping and aversion still remaining...)

the first daikensho being a permanent opening, ie a kensho that never closes when one is awake,
the second daikenhso being enlightenment 24 hours of the day, even during sleep so that you experience no change of state whatsoever...
third daikensho is the process of discovering why we are aware of anything at all,
and then fourth daikensho is a shattering of this mirror, moving beyond all reference points (ie permanently transcending dualism, buddhas enlightenment was a 4th daikensho according to some Zen commentaries)

After fourth, it becomes difficult to speak of without poetic means, as there are simply no more reference points...

Tozans 5 ranks do a good job of expounding the process, as do the 10 oxherding pictures... The 5 ranks are Koans in nature, so they take a bit of meditating on them to understand, but the oxherding pics are a great poetic outline of the stages of the spiritual journey

http://the-wanderling.com/five_ranks.html

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/weai/exea...oxherding.html


But I digress... nothing do do with entrainment... I just love talking about Zen :)

Yes, at a certain point only poetry suffices:

I among and of the Luminous
The tides of mind unbinding
I ride in suspension
Brushed not bruisen
Amidst the truthfulness
Time alignment stable adrift

Aimed uni purpose
Sensation senselessness
Fluid away floats freely me
This gift of the Luminous
Slackening consciousness
Tidal attunement most buoyant lift

I no longer wish forgetfulness
Fugue fuse forge the witness
Witlessly wise alignment arises
Shown one more moment
The vast lilting Luminous
Untaught unforgotten unsplit

I like that :)

One point of all this is that I feel that this field (AVS) has gotten way too caught up in 'goal-oriented' session expectations. Like the machine is going to do some magic act and you won't have to work at it. Mostly that is marketing BS. And also a cultural need: I invest, I expect.. I'm not saying it doesn't have results and a purpose. Only that there is the most complex machine in the known universe on the other end and that is the human brain.

The Kasina sessions that I designed (can't speak for others although I think Craig would concur at some level) are not 'goal' sessions. They are 'awe' sessions. They are meant to inspire and expand boundaries. They operate from a point of freedom from constriction.

Now, I know that is not what you are asking and when you talk about goal oriented sessions. You are referring to a well conceived and designed set of patterns that allow one to move further along a path.

You have no illusions apparently that it is the machine doing the work, and that is the right mindset.

This thought: a metronome is not music. A metronome can assist you in learning to make music, and what it is best at is assisting multiple people (a band) to groove with each other. AVS in relatively static patterns is a backbeat. You do want to learn to follow and dance and swing and play a song and then compose and then improvise. And also you would like to be able to play along with other 'musicians'.

Holosync really is almost the opposite of this. There were some studies that showed that long term meditating monks could produce exaggerated Delta levels. So they jumped on this as an ultimate goal. BTW, it is a sticky territory because you are playing with a whole group of people's sacred cow and a powerful, well funded company. I think they have the very best of intentions for the program, and also they are a business. I have stated that I used it and got the results I wanted. I would actually like to work with them and see them add Light and Sound to their offerings.

But there is also room for discussion on what other, and in my opinion better conceived and less simplistic, more realistic methods, could be undertaken.

Actually, talking about poetic descriptions of awakening reminds me of this quote:

Science . . . means unresting endeavor and continually progressing development toward an end which the poetic intuition may apprehend, but which the intellect can never fully grasp. -- Max Planck


After I posted this, I noticed your post above... I like the comparison to a metronome... at 120 bpm I can play all kinds of different music, flamenco, classical, brain blistering shred metal \m/,

Right now Im dealing with a lot of physical tension on the right side of my body... I know my posture is balanced, but the energy isnt flowing as freely... I can feel this intertwining band of tension from the tip of my big toe, up to a slight closing of my eye, narrowing my visual field... It also manifests as a slight dampening of perceived sounds in my right ear... if I focus on a particular part of the tension, I can relax it, but it just moves to other areas along this band...

I do yoga regularly, and it helps, but it keeps recurring... In your experience, what would you suggest as a good AVS protocol to work with this deeper?

Its all really quite subtle, and took years of meditation before I could feel the whole band of tension... its like the arterial chi pathway isnt functioning as well as the others... part of me thinks its partly due to my aggressive playing style... because of the dexterity in my fretting hand, the chi pathways have been fully roto-routed on the left side of my body, but there is a lot of tension in my picking hand, which due to the interconnectedness of the chi pathways, ultimately manifests as tension in all parts intersected by the affected nerves... I have started incorporating slow, mindful fingerstyle practice into my playing, and im finding it to be an incredible form of qi gong...

This realization is part of the reason i inquired earlier about using photosonix hemistim glasses with the kasina (actually I think this was an email conversation with Andy) so I could stimulate specific hemispheres, and also general stimulation of the entire peripheral field while performing other tasks, like playing music, writing, watching TV etc...

What are your thoughts on all this?

One more thing, Scott, do you feel that a big part of the response to light and sound is not necessarily that the brain is getting entrained, but we have some sort of built in psychological response to different frequencies and tempos? That the brain is responding to that and not necessarily the direct stimulation? (I guess this could be a chicken/egg argument though... [a minor digression: another chicken egg argument that's actually fun to ponder and discuss is, "what came first, the world or the word?"])

Looking at the metronome idea, you can greatly alter the same piece of music simply by slowing it down or speeding it up... also different harmony's affect the mind in different ways, like the difference between major and minor chords, and why a dim5 sounds dissonant... (a lot of thats mathematical, but still, it further supports our response to rhythms, tempos, and frequencies)

Being a musician, I think about sound and hearing a lot (im sure we all do)... Its a beautiful sense organ that can perceive as many colors as the eye (there are an infinite number of each if you want to get mathematical about it)... Theres a great book called "Psychedelic Prayers" by Timothy Leary, which is basically a translation of the Tao Te Ching in the "lingua franca of psychedelia" which I think would be really cool to include verses from in some sessions to inspire a particular introspective experience (or any other spiritual text, like the Heart Sutra, or something of that nature)... Honestly, a lot of the translations of the Tao Te Ching I have come across try too hard to approach translating it academically and end up losing the poetic subtlety.. Timothy Leary actually manages to keep it poetic, yet maintain its profundity. He organizes the verses a little differently, and some are made up, but its still an amazing book of poetry...

Heres the verse for sound from Psychedelic Prayers:

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Verse IV - 2

Hearing

Sound Waves, sound waves
Uncover lotus membrane
Trembling tattoo of
Sympathetic vibrations
Float along liquid canals

Single piano note
Meteor of delight
Collides with quivering membrane

Eternal note
Spins slowly
On vibrating thread

Ear you are
Sound waves

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I spent a lot of time with that book in my youth.. lol :icon_tongue:

There is an entrainment factor, no doubt, I have measured it on EEG as have many others. That much is not is doubt. What is in question is what is the effect on consciousness really? We are extrapolating from measured sleep rhythms (of which there is a huge data set) and in some sense meditative states (mainly of the transcendental variety with much less of a data set). There is a broader understanding of Alpha rhythms as associated with relaxation. We naturally produce Alpha as soon as the eyes close. But the understanding of neural oscillations (brainwaves) is not nearly as settled as simple sales or program materials would lead you to believe. In fact the recognized bands are just conventions much like the musical scale. None of it is at all simple.

That is why I always go back to what does have a nearly universal basis and that is harmonics. Simple whole number harmonics being the most useful to begin. When you get far beyond this into the principles of sidebands and interference waves it gets complex fast. I will speak much more on this at the right time as I have a quite refined system developed.

This is where neurofeedback is getting interesting. Advanced NF systems are recording and encoding outputs of sensor arrays and then playing them back to you. So, you record a number of sessions and find productive areas of those sessions and then reverse the output to feed it back, testing the response, and then do it again, trying to better customize it each time. This is an individualized process. With a sufficiently large set of data and sample group then you might be able to find 'constants' that can apply across a population. It is in its infancy and only recently have precise enough sensors been affordable to the home enthusiast.

More on the rest in a little while.

Scott

Im thoroughly intrigued... :)

I find that when I am learning I like to get a multitude of textbooks, MOOC's etc from as many decent sources as possible.

Meditation & neurofeedback are no different.

There are many different entrainment programs - surely its healthy for your brain to try them all.

Really the ideal is a personalized neurofeedback analysis but even then each different therapist will have different recommendations & techniques.

They would use this information to tailor a program specific to your brain & desired results.

Even QEEG uses a baseline average dataset to compare brainwave patterns to - not the ultimate in brain health but the average that is assumed functional.

So its not so simple as what is the best brainwave entrainment product or protocol.