'God helmet' interactions

Hi,

On Friday I got an email from a colleague with whom I will be collaborating on an hemisphere discordance sensory experiment. Being aware of my forays into building brain-machine interfaces, he jokingly asked me in the email if I thought I could build him a 'God helmet'. I had never heard of Michael Persinger or the 'God helmet' and I responded with a glib retort about my difficulty, as a spiritual atheist, in understanding what a 'God helmet' might do. His reply to my reply was, simply, "Google it!". Well, I did Google it and was fascinated by the absurdity of the claims for the device. Having studied placebo effects for years, I found myself in agreement with most of Persinger's critics. However, after examining many of the 400-some journal articles by Persinger, I began to wonder about a possible synergism when combining cortical entrainment with the effect of the 'God helmet', even if the latter is a placebo effect. In the course of my afternoon long research period, I found that one of Persinger's colleagues has designed a 'God helmet' clone (apparently blessed by Persinger) and is selling them for between $250 and $700 (the cost dependent on the number of independent channels of audio control information one can send to the solenoid magnetic field generators).

In all, I have three AVS machines including a Procyon and a Kasina, and have been using them for both recreation and in my laboratory research for over a year (my students and I will be presenting a poster on individual differences in alpha entrainment stimulation frequencies at the International Behavioral Neuroscience Society meeting in June (and, I expect, in a refereed journal shortly after that). Since a great deal of the information I used in developing my testing protocols was acquired in these forums, I thought that somebody here might have some experience with the combining of a 'God helmet' type device with AVS. Basically, what I want to know is whether I am insane in thinking about purchasing a device I am very skeptical about (I did all the "God seeing' I needed for a lifetime 40-some odd years ago with the help of some 5-HT_2A receptor agonists :D), just to look at effects of combining this possibly sham magnetic stimulation with AVS.

So, anybody here played with a 'God machine', or, more importantly, used one with AVS?

John

You are referring to the Shakti device. I bought one many years ago and had little to no effect beyond placebo. It produces a very weak magnetic field. However the way he used multiple audio splitters to simulate a rotating field is interesting. More powerful electromagnets would have a greater effect. There are also quite a few unknowns as to what the audio content is that is powering the magnets. I now have the knowledge to extract and analyze those files which I didn't at that time. Maybe I will do that.

There is little doubt that TMS level stimulation has profound results. Nor is it recommended outside trained administrators under clinical conditions. tDCS falls closer to the acceptable risk level for the hobbyist, although I am not advocating for that, I personally administer it to myself.

Still, on a philosophical level, it is entirely reasonable, in fact almost necessary, that a spiritual atheist would need to implicate some brain region (or a functional network) in the widespread religiosity of humanity, throughout all ages. Knowing that chemicals can induce these experiences, it is not at all far fetched that electromagnetic stimulation could have a similar, relative effect.

I think Persinger has some of the more interesting and profound published studies, as pertains to attempting to materialize the spiritual.

I do have to say that I didn't put a lot of time into the Shakti. I felt that results should have been more apparent. I tend to think there wouldn't be any acclimation period as there is with AVS. AVS exposure often has a phase where the focus remains entirely on the novelty of the flashing lights. It can take a number of exposures (varying amongst people) to settle into the intent of the session.

tDCS for instance did not have this phase, at least for me. Yes, the feeling of stimulation was novel, but it had an immediate notable impact. I might revisit this attitude toward the Shakti as possibly I missed some of the subtleties. I have grown more deliberate and studious over the years.

We are also exploring tDCS in my lab. I've been waiting for fast-blo 5 mA fuses to arrive to finish the circuit. We're going with an 18 V (four 9 V batteries parallel/serial) power source because I may want to experiment with alternate body cathode placements.

Trying to determine what you get for what price is a bit difficult by reading the pages at http://www.shaktitechnology.com/, however, it seems that 16-coil Shiva system would be most appropriate since it apparently comes with replications of Persinger's 'God sessions' as well as other sessions. Also, being a music producer, I'm interested in seeing how they implement 8-channel audio control. Still, $700 is a bit tough to justify, seeing that I'm still pretty sure that most of Persinger's 'God' results are placebo in nature. However, you're right. If you can get these effects with a pill, why not brain stimulation?

Basically what I got was 8 of these: Telephone Recorder Pickup

Audio splitters and adapters (off the shelf 3.5mm variety), strips of 1" white velcro and velcro dots, and a software disc, made from some very old ebook maker (like an old multimedia autorun type thing)

Total cost of parts maybe $50 and the pickups were more common then.

So, whatever value you place in the 'brain recordings' would need to make up the difference.

Though I've read quite a few of Persinger's papers, as well as several of the books he authored/edited, I have not personally tried a Shakti helmet or similar device. When I spoke to him in the early 90s, he alluded to the shape of the magnetic field being important, and dependent upon the waveforms being used to drive the coils, which he did not want to discuss in further detail. Part of his model of how subtle magnetic fields can affect our brains has to do with the lability of the tissue within the limbic system and temporal lobes; he believes that these fields can trigger 'microseizures' which remain within those structures and also evoke an intense experience. There is certainly a lot of evidence available that temporal lobe epilepic seizures can induce intense religious (and other) experiences. You might also find Robert O. Becker, M.D.s books 'Cross Currents' and 'The Body Electric' to be a source of useful information in terms of geomagnetic effects on our brains.

Hi Robert,

Yes, the temporal lobe epilepsy story is about the only thing that is reasonably well known and can be used to support Persinger's claims. However, I'm somewhat an expert on the subject (I worked with amygdala kindling in Peter Milner's lab at McGill University, soon after Ron Racine left, and I did a substantial amount of research on anti-epileptic agents over the past 20 years), and there is no way that the fields that Persinger is generating could produce paroxysms anywhere in the brain, no matter how focused they are. If there is a physiological effect that underlies Persinger's 'God states', it definitely has nothing to do with subcortical paroxysmal activity.

John

Very interesting, John. And it's always nice to have an expert weigh in here on our support forums. Do you have any estimations of what field strength/waveform/frequency/etc. parameters would indeed be capable of kindling in the Amygdala or other limbic/temporal structures? And I take it that you have not seen evidence of 'microseizure' activity in these, or other neural structures? Part of my own interest in this topic was influenced by the literature of chaos theory, nonlinear dynamics, etc. and the suggestion in some sources that our brains operate at the 'edge of chaos'. The concept of microseizures in labile tissues were consistent with that model, and it appeared that some of Persinger's research supported that. But his published studies were pretty much all small-N, and his speculations on mechanisms of action would surely not have made it into some of the more prestigious academic publications. I'm looking forward to following your own excursions into magnetic stimulation of the brain, modulated or not.

-Robert

Hi every body I would like to give my experience with shiva device

it doesn't work with avs together he says in his web sit that for the best results you use after shiva session is seams to be more profound after I personally never tried during a shiva session after yes and for me kasina is already a powerful tool for different states of the mind and I see no differences.

shiva has many session and you can use different setting and strength some of the session is too weak for me but all depends which you pick some of then is for depression and for moods lifting if you don't have those symptoms you will feel no difference like me nothing noticeable on the other hand I did play with other session and I did use EEG before and after and yes there is a significant changes on brain activity some of the level did give me a Headache but nothing to serious..

I want to record my self using shiva and EEG before and after more often and i will post on youtube for other maybe help with suggestion and etc

indeed the wave form you use and the strength and no distortion on the audio makes the hole difference ..

the stimulation with god helmet works but you need sensory deprivation and again for me I have easy access to different levels of consciousness just doing ganzfeld by it self..

I am still a beginner with shiva and I love to research for fun I recently discover this site http://www.diypemf.com/ you can spend 25 dollars in one pair of coils and try a different things just download the wave form you want and remember not to set the volume to high http://www.diypemf.com/cgi-bin/mkfre...eq/search.html just search for what you looking for ..I got mine on ebay and will arrive soon so I am going to experiment with it in bed maybe using kasina as well at the same time why not lol

one more thing to consider is that no every body can feel the effects of this type of stimulation I think 15% don't maybe they have a stronger tolerance

And my last thing is that you can create your own session with shiva I haven't done yet but I intend too

I'm aware of the diypemf site and I bought some of those coils. They seem pretty nice.

The problem is that I have no way to measure the magnetic field strength. I've been looking at various EMF meters that can measure ELF fields. They can get pretty expensive so I haven't chosen one yet.

Running the shakti sessions through these would be a step up I'm sure.

I got the coils this morning I did quick review the coils works fine i will do some more testing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ic0_623JvU

Cool, I'll pick up one of the Gauss meters. I want one with logging but that one will suffice for now. Thanks for pointing that out. Will you measure your Shakti too?

I do but I want to make a comparison of both to see the difference

I am thinking to buy an amplifier headphones/systems and use the coils would have an stronger field ?just connecting to a regular or any mp3 player.. this guy on ebay seams to be open for special orders he can build a special amplifier and his price seams good too I am not sure what kind of special features should I ask for? do you think is a good idea?
here is the link http://www.ebay.ie/itm/231475757559?...84.m1438.l2649

thanks in the advance

You should be able to push it a bit more, up to a limit. I think the AllevaWave device maxes out at around 225 G. I would try something like BEHRINGER MICROAMP HA400

It is cheap enough and works good with our devices. I use it to drive vibration cushions.

You might want to buy an extra set of coils at least in case you damage them. I think I will do this. You might also drive it with something like the Spooky2 signal generator http://www.spooky2-mall.com/index.ph...rator-296.html You will definitely have to watch the voltage output though.

That unit is a whole discussion by itself and I like it a lot.

I have seen the spooky2 device it seams very interesting but I haven't seen a connection headphones ? it must be an adaptor ...indeed the behringer is very cheap thanks for that

You need a BNC to 3.5mm adapter with Spooky2... again you must really dial back the voltage.

I had the shakti, Didn't do anything for me, I was wondering if I didn't set it up correctly as I didn't experience anything. I had a chance to buy the helmet instead of the coils and wish I did but then maybe I did have it set correctly and wasn't sensitive to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroasis

You should be able to push it a bit more, up to a limit. I think the AllevaWave device maxes out at around 225 G. I would try something like BEHRINGER MICROAMP HA400

It is cheap enough and works good with our devices. I use it to drive vibration cushions.

You might want to buy an extra set of coils at least in case you damage them. I think I will do this. You might also drive it with something like the Spooky2 signal generator http://www.spooky2-mall.com/index.ph...rator-296.html You will definitely have to watch the voltage output though.

That unit is a whole discussion by itself and I like it a lot.

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I am interested in the spooky2 and have been for a few months as I can't afford an expensive rife machine and would not like to risk too much money on something that might not work even if I could but I downloaded the software to see what it was about and found it so complex. I wish I had your technical mind Scott. If it is easy to learn to use for somebody who does not have your technological knowledge then please let me know as It is something I am interested in.

Spooky2 is complex sure, but there is already a massive built in database to draw from. So really, it is plug and play for a long time until you get interested in creating your own sessions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroasis

Spooky2 is complex sure, but there is already a massive built in database to draw from. So really, it is plug and play for a long time until you get interested in creating your own sessions.

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Thanks scott, As long as I can plug and play and do not have to mess with parameters then that is good enough for me.

The God Helmet is not the Shakti device. They are different, and the results from one cannot be automatically applied to the others.

This thread has a few mentions of the God Helmet working through placebo effect. This simply isn't true. It also has someone who says that 1) they think it works through placebo - but 2) they still want to try it with other mind techniques. It sounds like they aren't really sure.

I've been reading about this, and there is plenty of evidence that these technologies, which work with low-intensity magnetic fields, actually do have an effect on the brain. Here is a link to some of the evidence: http://tinyurl.com/jefwbtt Most of it is from outside the lab where the God Helmet is used.

There is an independent replication of God Helmet effects, which you can see here: http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2582896

My suggestion, try taking a low dose of valium late at night when you are tired, and try the device then. Of course, if you'd have to stay awake (so really, do use a low dose), but that's not so hard to do.

Stop thinking so much. Just relax.

Alright, I'll bite. So, different how? I assume that you have experienced both systems, know the specs and can compare them? This page claims they are virtually the same or comparable, https://www.shaktitechnology.com/shi...lmet/index.htm The original literature did as well which I personally based my purchase upon.

This is a newer USB system but the coils appear essentially the same as the original 8 coil Shakti which I have. Probably there is a USB soundcard added. I stated earlier that I haven't done a lot of experiments with the unit I have but it is still in my possession and there is no reason it wouldn't be functional, simple as it is.

Note that point number 5 on the page I link to muddies the waters a bit:
5) The magnetic signals used for the (now discontinued) old Shakti Helmet. Note: The old Shakti Helmet was not a version of the God Helmet
NOTE: The Shiva software contains instructions for stripping down your Shiva unit to an 8 Coil Shakti unit.

Still, I assume he is talking about a helmet version. I haven't tried or seen that.

We try to expel as many myths as possible here and speak from experience when we can. Of course, like many experimental technologies, proper set, setting, professional administration and record keeping often uncover subtle changes that otherwise are missed. Still, being hobbyists essentially, we lack really comprehensive measurement tools.

People with new knowledge are always encouraged to add to the discussion.

I looked into this again, and I found that the God Helmet uses 8 audio channels, and the Shakli uses only two. The extra channels sequence the fields in circles. I don't know all the specs, but that looks like the main difference. If I find out more, I'll edit this post and add it.

Yes, it is true that the Shakti 8 coil I have is just 2 channels. There are 8 coils though and it is rather clever how they made them 'rotate'. The unit uses several adapters to chain the coils together. Then they have a vertical pair and a horizontal pair on each side. Alternating the audio channels produces the 'rotation' as the signal goes from the vertical set to the horizontal. You could have both sides of the head rotate in or out of phase this way. It was a nifty idea and reduced the cost of the materials substantially.

Of course these days you could easily have a 7.1 USB audio interface and have true control of all 8 coils. Maybe they are doing that in newer units. Even so, for what looks essentially the same as I have, $600+ is crazy. I paid less than $150.

"Myself and a handful of others have been using this device, called a "God Helmet", for several months now and the subjective reporting tends to cluster and lines up with what you would expect.

Stimulate the hippocampus and you'll get into a more "wordless" space that feels much like a deep meditation for me. Stimulate the amygdala and you'll get an improved feeling of well being.

I'm not a brain scientist or a researcher, just exploring on my own, but based on what i've read, the effects fall in line with expectations.

The device was developed by Dr Persinger and has been used in a number of published experiments in peer reviewed journals.

Is anyone else here playing with devices like this? So far my experience has been very positive and surprising in some respects."

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...1/pg1#54851570

"I was using an experimental device, called a "god helmet" to see if it would boost my OBE experience, it did. I experienced total knowledge and connection to everything. I experienced a level of joy that cannot be explained with words. I was a globe of white light among an infinite number of other white lights. I floated as close as possible to get near the great light, it was massive, pervading everything except the space we were in."

http://www.oberf.org/henry_w_obe.htm

"Finally, this morning I did a God Helmet session. This was a pretty intense experience. Think binaural beats or perhaps CES at a delta or theta state, but much stronger. Very pleasant overall experience with lots of very strong and colorful hypnagogic flashes. There was a peacefulness about it. The experience felt very warm and very safe. It's hard to describe. Now I am no stranger to altered states, so my perception of pleasant might be another's "weird" or "just too intense". I can see why people report a presence or in some cases a sense of God. I would describe that element of the experience more like the feeling one has on psychedelics, that feeling of oneness or interconnection. I would describe it that way."

http://mortalmist.com/forum/index.php?topic=4814.0

There are three first-hand accounts from people using a God Helmet.

I looks like is uses four USB sound devices to produce the 8 channels, and comes with 16 coils, all of which can be used in a "tweak" of the basic setup. They appear the same, but it looks like they're not.

If they are using 4 stereo USB sound devices then presumably the audio files are stereo and being mirrored either in phase or out of phase. To me, that was the only potentially rare part of the Shakti device, the stimulation audio files. I did export all of mine from the original software and have analyzed some. They are really quite simple actually. Modulated pulse trains. I intend to revisit that at some point but the software is installed on an old XP laptop that I don't pull out very often.

'Trip' reports are interesting and can be motivational, or leading, depending on how you look at it.

If God is a spirit how can a material helmet talk to him? Curious

Don't take it literally. "God helmet" is just a term the media came up with to tell the story for popular science consumption. What is reported from Persinger's experiments regarding this tool is that 'religious' or 'spiritual' experience can be stimulated. For anyone who has taken strong psychedelic drugs or had deep meditation experiences this is not news. However, it does help identify the specific brain regions that are involved.

It makes no difference in these particular experiments whether one includes spirit or not. The point is that there is an expression through matter, in this case, the brain, regardless of the source. Science cannot study spirit at this time having no tools capable of measuring it. If in fact it does exist then work of this type is a good beginning to uncover it. The same can be said of psychedelic research with high resolution brain imagining.