Meditation and AVS

Hi Bob,

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Originally Posted by Bob

Hi Marisa,
I signed up and read through the forums. You've put in large amounts of effort to support users and to provoke discussion so I thought it relevant to give some views for your perusal. I'm new to machine based introspection but have a lengthy traditional background based on Yoga and martial arts training. Please feel free to critique my comment in publicspace :)

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I can certainly appreciate the dedication and skill levels one attains through both yoga and martial arts. :cheers:

If you want to take any of this conversation over to the forum so that others can benefit from it, just start a topic there. It's okay if it's repetitive from what we have or may discuss.

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Two specific topics that you raised struck home:
-) Profound experience from meditation
-) Attention focus during work and study

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soooo... item 1 -)
You state that meditation occurs in the theta domain (with some beta and/or alpha presence to promote conscious awareness) . My personal view is that the profound silence -- with subtle but very shifted perception occurs in the delta region. (Dumping yourself into dreamland would appear to lead to a very busy conscious mind...)
Perhaps a low Theta borderline Delta would be closest to this state. The farther you go into Delta, the further you go into unconsciousness. By the time you are at 2 -3 Hz, you are pretty much asleep (which in a sense is profound silence but I doubt that is not what you are talking about). :eusa_think:

I will take a look through my literature and see if I can find some more information for you. I vaguely recall that there were some studies done on brain states and meditation. Unfortunately at the moment, I don't remember what the studies concluded or if their conclusions are relevant to our conversation.

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Here is my present solution:
Run a Procyon mind-art session with the first two tracks from the Insight CD (from http://www.immrama.org/ ) mixed-in. Enjoy the visuals to the hilt (theta) then progress ( i.e. short "trip" to delta focus) with audio only (headphone swap as Procyon shuts down), sometimes your mind will stay busy, but I find that this is not frequent.

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The Mind Art programs are designed for entertainment purposes and so you will not get any kind of "therapeutic" effect from them. You probably would not be able to achieve a Theta state in a Mind Art program because it's too "active" - it may even cancel out the effects of the Insight Cd. You would probably be better off choosing a program in the Tranquility range or Visualization. You could try it in one of the Night Voyage programs, but you'll probably fall asleep.

Bob says:

Your comments lead me to suspect that my basic assumptions are unsound so I'll expand on a few things:
The Silence:
-) no mind chatter
-) complete (unprovoked) concentration on the present moment. Senses appear accentuated giving the world a magical facet.
-) stress leads to immediate self observation (like very refined witnessing, but just happens rather than involving conscious decision ).
-) planning and problem solving occurs rapidly, efficiently and without irrelevant emotional trauma. Any visual imagery involved appears cinematic rather than
'egocentric'.

This can last for some hours following meditation. I've not yet discovered how to do this using the standard Procyon library (thus my mail...and inclusion of solely binaural beat references) but definitely there are many big benefits in using the (combined) sound and light approach (perhaps discuss this later).

Agreed that delta alone shuts you down. In the presence of some concurrent beta and alpha stimulus there would appear to be some scope for accessing the deep subconcious whilst remaining very aware. This is in fundamental essence what I suspect I've been doing (yep pure conjecture inspired by profound experience).

Mind art is a riot and really stimulates the theta domain. I totally agree this is poor meditation but it grabs you by the throat and sticks you fairly close so as a warmup it gets all your attention before the transition to where the changes occur.

I'll try and borrow a spectrum analyser to discern the frequency content in the immrama tracks. (....and I expect this will show that your comments are correct..... :) )

Perhaps try what I suggested a few times? Holosync (dive then immersion tracks, any level) also work for me. (borrow the stuff for a week; you must have contacts). I'd really like to get a Procyon version in place as the combined light and sound results are really rapid and damn forceful (not to mention that I get up late and thus curtail my morning sessions...).

Best regards,
Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob

Your comments lead me to suspect that my basic assumptions are unsound so I'll expand on a few things:
The Silence:
-) no mind chatter
-) complete (unprovoked) concentration on the present moment. Senses appear accentuated giving the world a magical facet.
-) stress leads to immediate self observation (like very refined witnessing, but just happens rather than involving conscious decision ).
-) planning and problem solving occurs rapidly, efficiently and without irrelevant emotional trauma. Any visual imagery involved appears cinematic rather than
'egocentric'.

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This almost sounds like a good SMR (Beta state) especially since the mind is quite active in problem solving and planning. Interesting.

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This can last for some hours following meditation. I've not yet discovered how to do this using the standard Procyon library (thus my mail...and inclusion of solely binaural beat references) but definitely there are many big benefits in using the (combined) sound and light approach (perhaps discuss this later).

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I wonder if using a program such as P6 (SMR & Alpha) would be beneficial after meditation. :eusa_think:

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Agreed that delta alone shuts you down. In the presence of some concurrent beta and alpha stimulus there would appear to be some scope for accessing the deep subconscious whilst remaining very aware. This is in fundamental essence what I suspect I've been doing (yep pure conjecture inspired by profound experience).

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It makes me wonder if short bursts of Gamma would work ... something between 50 - 75 Hz. You would only want to go there for a few seconds at a time or else you could end up more anxious than in a "super state" (for lack of better words). I mention gamma because I've read that shorts bursts of gamma can take someone into a higher state of altered consciousness and accelerated thinking. I don't know how true this is though logically it makes more sense than going further down into unconsciousness because that state would slow your mind down rather than activate it to a heightened state.

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Mind art is a riot and really stimulates the theta domain. I totally agree this is poor meditation but it grabs you by the throat and sticks you fairly close so as a warm up it gets all your attention before the transition to where the changes occur.

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How do you know that Mind Art actually stimulates the theta domain? I have my doubts because your description does not resonate with a theta state.

Thanks Bob, for this conversation. It is quite interesting to me and I'm sure others will find it interesting (and hopefully join it) as well.

M.

You may find this interesting even though the studies don't have anything to do with AVS induced meditation:

"Three case reports of them metabolic and electroencephalographic changes during advanced Buddhist meditation techniques. Study conducted by the Department of Medicine, New England Deaconess Hospital, Boston. Published in Behav Med 1990 Summer; 16(2):90-5.

... On the EEG, marked asymmetry in alpha and beta activity between the hemispheres and increased beta activity were present."


Another study found that "during meditation, proficient mediators demonstrated increased alpha and theta power, minimal evidence of EEG-defined sleep, and decreased autonomic orienting to external stimulation. An episode of sudden autonomic activation was observed that was characterized by the meditator as an approach to the Yogic ecstatic state of intense concentration. These findings challenge the current "relaxation" model of meditative states." Source: Arch Gen Psychiatry 1978 May;35(5):571-7. Study was "Psycholophysiological correlates of the practice of Tantric Yoga meditation.



Source:

Chapter 1:
Scientific Studies of Contemplative Experience: An Overview
by Michael Murphy

http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm
The Zen teachers and their most experienced students exhibited a typical progression of brain-wave activity during meditation, which Kasamatsu and Hirai divided into four stages:

• Stage 1: Characterized by the appearance of alpha waves in spite of opened eyes.
• Stage 2: Characterized by an increase in amplitude of persistent alpha waves.
• Stage 3: Characterized by a decrease in alpha frequency.
• Stage 4: Characterized by the appearance of rhythmical theta trains (Kasamatsu and Hirai, 1966).

Not all four stages were evident in every Zen practitioner, nor in any of the controls, but a strong correlation existed between the number of stages a given student exhibited and that student's length of time in Zen training. This correlation was supported by a Zen teacher's evaluation of each student's proficiency. The teacher ranked the students in three levels, without seeing their EEG records, and his rankings correlated well with Kasamatsu and Hirai's assessment of their EEGs.

...so now I get fed to the wolves for promoting competing technologies...err, thanks Merisa.

I'm not sure that feeling significant effect from meditation is the best route to follow; really don't know. Clearing out the subconscious mess would seem necessary to achieve full brain activity which is where this effort should ultimately lead.

Zen studies, hmm you've got me dialed! Thanks for the link. I'm sure this will lead to more interesting dialogue.

I've got a Grand Unified Theory for this stuff so I think it best if more of the reasoning and basis is exposed for review. I'll try and defend my perspective (if I can...) but hope that this does not appear as arrogance. I'm listening and really appreciate other's effort and input :).

I have binaural sound tracks with (claimed) beta, alpha, theta and delta focus. None of these appear to induce sleep so there is more in there. Although of differing duration they use the same rainfall sound to mask the underlying binaural tones.
Beta track:
- seems to alleviate mental and physical fatigue but is nowhere as effective as most Procyon sessions. It seems to accentuate emotional attachment to viewpoints and circumstances. It is recommended for sport preparation and activity. Tried it for kettlebell workouts and found masses of motivation at a very high cost in technique. Big bruises, crap workouts.
Alpha track: Use this lots. Allows 40 pages of dense academic material to be studied with no glitches in attention. Retention of the info is way higher than with normal study. Retention with interspersed Procyon sessions results in almost no reason for revised reading.
Used with kettlebell training results in really focussed workouts with good technique and high rep count. Got that slightly detached martial arts feel :)
Theta track: Recommended for generating creative solutions with pre-preparation of problem area. Tried this repeatedly and got images from anything but the 'focus' area. Much was scary. Decided to run meditation to clear this out over some months (using a witness perspective to deal with the disturbing stuff). Although this has turned quieter I've never ended a session with anything but a busy mind. I've also never seen anything creative during a session...but after a few weeks I found myself playing jazz piano integrating a vast range of stuff I've never studied.
Delta track: This makes the silence. I'm also left with the viewpoint that the state that follows is continued meditation (and very different than the effects of the alpha or beta tracks).

Think this portrays my perspective of my limited little universe... Obviously I'm using heuristic measurement with reliance on the CD wrapper as a scale :)
Cheers,
Bob

For those that wish to meddle with binaural beat sound tracks, it is not clever to MP3 these as the data compression can destroy the relevant audio.

I've not checked using scope/spectrum analyser but recording in SP mode on minidisc using ATRAC3 format seems to retain the relevant detail. (...legacy technology, but really cheap on eBay :) )

Recent media players handle more diverse formats than MP3 & 4. Anyone know more?
Bob

Hi Marisa,
You asked the very relevant question as to how I assess (dominant) state.. After some experimentation with the binaural tracks:
Beta: unconsidered reaction to outside response, many poor decisions
Alpha: effortless high level of attention and no strong motivation to directly act. Periferal vision blends in importance to fovial (central) vision. Awareness of sound detail increases. Decisions are deliberate and have 'space'.
Theta: visionry domain. No real control over subject. In a meditation context this is cinematic rather than having the interaction that occurs in dreams.
Delta: Detatched viewpoint just watching the present without feeling any motivation for action. When action occurs it just happens. Decisions seem uncomplicated. Results from decision have so far been good :)

Following mind art I find the visionary domain is present if I just sit. (I' ve also found that over time that the abstract mind art visuals have slowed and are becoming scenes, frequently from memory). So what's your diagnosis? Am I seriously deranged?

I was born with almost no sight in one eye. The retina is a mess of mangled rods and cones. Since playing with hi-tec meditation sparkles appeared in various places followed by useful vision. This has spread over most of the eye. Not adequate to read with but plenty to contribute to stereoscopic vision. (I've also been eating spirulina, a superfood hjigh in beta-carrotine as part of my vegan sports-related diet,,,see, well, deranged :) )
Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob

Hi Marisa,
You asked the very relevant question as to how I assess (dominant) state.. After some experimentation with the binaural tracks:
Beta: unconsidered reaction to outside response, many poor decisions
Alpha: effortless high level of attention and no strong motivation to directly act. Peripheral vision blends in importance to fovial (central) vision. Awareness of sound detail increases. Decisions are deliberate and have 'space'.
Theta: visionary domain. No real control over subject. In a meditation context this is cinematic rather than having the interaction that occurs in dreams.
Delta: Detached viewpoint just watching the present without feeling any motivation for action. When action occurs it just happens. Decisions seem uncomplicated. Results from decision have so far been good :)

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So essentially, you have attributed certain feelings to achieving certain states. The only way that you would know for sure is by measuring with an EEG. I agree with some of what you say but not all. :eusa_think:

There are some states that are known to be associated with each frequency. They are known because at some point, they were measured with an EEG. For example: Beta is a given when you are awake and performing more of an active task. Alpha is a bit trickier as it usually occurs when you have your eyes closed and fades into the background when you have your eyes open. Mood can be an indicator of alpha as Alpha is associated with a "feel good" group of frequencies and with being in a relaxed state. Theta is associated with a trance state, day dreaming and hypnosis. . Delta is associated with sleep and unconscious processing ... the key here is "unconscious" ... not awake. :icon_wink:

A healthy person will never have Delta as a dominant wave state while they are awake. Delta as a dominant wave state during awake periods would be an indication of brain injury, fetal alcohol syndrome and substance abuse. The exception here is that in children up to the age of four, Delta is the dominant brain wave.

A person will periodically slip in and out of theta during waking hours. Sometimes repetitive, mundane actions induce theta, just as they would induce a trance. Example, painting a fence, waiting in a long line, watching TV, listening to a somewhat boring lecture ...

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Following mind art I find the visionary domain is present if I just sit. (I' ve also found that over time that the abstract mind art visuals have slowed and are becoming scenes, frequently from memory). So what's your diagnosis? Am I seriously deranged?

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Totally damaged .. ha ha just kidding. :eusa_dance: Scenes from past memories are a state associated with Theta so ... perhaps it does take you there.

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I was born with almost no sight in one eye. The retina is a mess of mangled rods and cones. Since playing with hi-tec meditation sparkles appeared in various places followed by useful vision. This has spread over most of the eye. Not adequate to read with but plenty to contribute to stereoscopic vision. (I've also been eating spirulina, a superfood high in beta-carrotine as part of my vegan sports-related diet,,,see, well, deranged :) )

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So you have a little organic mind art to add to the mind art of the session. That must make for an interesting experience. Are you sure it's spirulina? :icon_weed: hee hee

M.

My thanks to Marisa for the link to the academic review paper. Recommend anyone interested in the physiological effects of meditation to read through this and the surrounding links. It should also be of interest to anyone interested to see how scientists are appraising this area.

The discussions appear to have raised a few apparent contradictions:
-) Marisa states that delta focussed entrainment produces an unconcious sleep state and there is both scientific evidence and a host of AVS sessions that show that this is correct.
-) Marisa states that meditation should occur in the Theta (perhaps down to upper delta) domain. This is consistent with the study of Zen masters and followers that she refers to above.
...however
-) Imramma Insight and Holosync both claim to operate in low delta and do not enforce sleep.
-) Entrainment in the Theta regions produces a busy mind and loads of images rather than tranquility and/or a profound feeling of change.

I suspect that something along the following lines is happening:
-) Traditional meditation takes years to master so the unconcious regions are opened to conciousness over a lengthy period. The conflicts between the two regions
are thus well resolved for skilled traditional meditators thus they experience tranquility. AVS and binaural beat technologies produce very rapid effect thus there is a very
large amounts for the concious mind to process.
-) The binaural beat tracks contain delta combined with other entrainment to retain some conciousness. (There is a statement inferring this in the Holosync audio suppot material.) Suspect that this is low Beta or high Alpha.
-) The Imramma and Holosync tracks 'cheat' by opening the subconcious but not by stimulating the regions where there is much pictorial (memory) and emotional content.
Note that there is still disturbance when using these but it appears as e.g. breathing won't settle, leg muscle keeps tightening, shoulder blade won't stay relaxed etc.
To borrow (possibly unfairly :) ) from Marisa, "unconcious processing is stimulated" (rather than the Theta dream region).

Do we have anyone with longterm AVS usage for 'pure' meditation purposes around? If Theta region meditation is used, does it quieten? Any comment on how long this took?

Marisa, I'll return to comment on/reply to the large number of points that you have contributed. Like you style; you keep needling me :)
Bob

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Originally Posted by Marisa

So essentially, you have attributed certain feelings to achieving certain states. The only way that you would know for sure is by measuring with an EEG. I agree with some of what you say but not all. :eusa_think:

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bob: yep, completely heuristic assessment. ...and even worse is that experience with raja yoga leaves me able to meddle; not very objective then...
NMR or EEG assessment would be very interesting. My real interest is in developing the ability to utilise whole brain functionality at will. Training up control of specific intermediate states would seem to be one approach. The Zen style sudden complete transition has a record of success and has the benefit of just happening (not to mention the drawback of just not happening).

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There are some states that are known to be associated with each frequency. They are known because at some point, they were measured with an EEG. For example: Beta is a given when you are awake and performing more of an active task. Alpha is a bit trickier as it usually occurs when you have your eyes closed and fades into the background when you have your eyes open. Mood can be an indicator of alpha as Alpha is associated with a "feel good" group of frequencies and with being in a relaxed state. Theta is associated with a trance state, day dreaming and hypnosis. . Delta is associated with sleep and unconscious processing ... the key here is "unconscious" ... not awake. :icon_wink:

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bob: deep meditation appears to combine two unusually related states. Traditional meditators appear to reside in Theta but can be very aware of the outside. I have a suspicion that the binaural beat tracks I've used combine (probably some balance) of delta and beta(/high alpha)

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A healthy person will never have Delta as a dominant wave state while they are awake. Delta as a dominant wave state during awake periods would be an indication of brain injury, fetal alcohol syndrome and substance abuse. The exception here is that in children up to the age of four, Delta is the dominant brain wave.

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bob: sounds like I didn't grow up perhaps :) ...or got stuck somewhere in subsequent chilhoods. Seriously though: meditation opens the unconcious mind to progressive degrees. The state that you switch to following meditation need not be the same as during meditation. The claim that I am making is that I frequently function differently for some hours following meditation using claimed delta based binaural tracks. I am able to e.g solve complex design tasks whilst only seeing immediate decisions and just passively watching the present. Replaying the design route later leaves me to believe that the problem decisions were made from a sound position covering all the design facets. Looks like went to bed with a complex decision, woke with a really tidy, well thought through solution only only didn't need the 7 hours of background processing.

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A person will periodically slip in and out of theta during waking hours. Sometimes repetitive, mundane actions induce theta, just as they would induce a trance. Example, painting a fence, waiting in a long line, watching TV, listening to a somewhat boring lecture ...

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bob: I personally dislike this as a waking state, (possibly why I've never owned a TV...). I've found that hi-tec meditation has close to eliminated it.

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Totally damaged .. ha ha just kidding. :eusa_dance: Scenes from past memories are a state associated with Theta so ... perhaps it does take you there.

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bob: I'll try running some of your alternative AVS sessions and see if the final outcome has a different bias. I'm fairly certain that I can increase beta with eyes open (unsurprising given the martial arts background) and am wondering if the theta region may also be under partial conscious influence...

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So you have a little organic mind art to add to the mind art of the session. That must make for an interesting experience. Are you sure it's spirulina? :icon_weed: hee hee

M.

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Label says spirulina, must read the "Use By:" date more carefully in future :)

Hi Marisa,
There is a phrase in the review paper that you referenced that I think succinctly describes the post-meditation state that I suspect I've seen glimmers of:
"...the alert calm and peace of yogic practice or the effortless but appropriate behavior of Zen Buddhist and Taoist adepts."
Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob

bob: NMR or EEG assessment would be very interesting. My real interest is in developing the ability to utilize whole brain functionality at will. Training up control of specific intermediate states would seem to be one approach. The Zen style sudden complete transition has a record of success and has the benefit of just happening (not to mention the drawback of just not happening).

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Re: Developing ability to utilize the whole brain. I would think that the best way to do this is to break it down into sections to work on. Much like you do with your martial arts training ... built up your strength and speed through specific exercises and practice and eventually put it all together so that your mind and body work as one.

So, for example, to improve the visual ability - you would do specific exercises designed to improve peripheral vision or tracking ability. A really good way to do is through a Nintendo DS Lite game called "Flash Focus".

The Martial Arts that you do, take care of developing and using hand/eye coordination, balance and other physical/mental related skills.

Taking an NLP Practitioner course would be excellent for learning how your brain creates it's programs, thus giving you control over mood, state and beliefs (to name a few). Much of the knowledge is complimentary to controlling your mind as they teach in Buddhism, martial arts strategy (for lack of better word) -- being able to recognize weakness in your opponent and psych him out in battle. Of course there are other ways to learn this sort of thing but NLP puts it all together nicely in a compressed package of knowledge, knowledge that you would have to other wise search for in bits and pieces.

Back to Nintendo ... brain exercises such as you can do with Brain Age and Big Brain Academy are also useful in exercising all the different areas of the brain.

The AVS machines and Biofeedback are also useful for conditioning the nervous system as well as stimulating certain brainwaves. The ThoughtStream has Mental Games which also have many of the games that stimulate the brain. I like the Nintendo because it's more portable than mental games, where you need the computer. On the other hand, Mental Games is designed to interact with your physiology and given your stated desire ... it may just be the thing for you.

Finally, there is the nutrition aspect specific for improving brain function. Let me know if you want a list.

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bob: deep meditation appears to combine two unusually related states. Traditional meditators appear to reside in Theta but can be very aware of the outside. I have a suspicion that the binaural beat tracks I've used combine (probably some balance) of delta and beta(/high alpha)

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LOL I've gotta get you off the delta thing. I'm telling ya, its only a good state for sleep and body regeneration.

In theta, you are aware of what's around you, you just are not paying particular attention to it because you are focused on the "inner planes" per se'.

If you use a BB in the delta range along with another beat in the Beta range, your brain will likely pick a range in the middle. I don't see this as an efficient way to achieve the goal. I suppose, if you want, you could try creating a program that is delta beta and then see for your self if the results are what you want. I don't think it would work .. but then I've been wrong before ... once. :icon_wink: ha ha

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bob: sounds like I didn't grow up perhaps :) ...or got stuck somewhere in subsequent childhoods. Seriously though: meditation opens the unconscious mind to progressive degrees. The state that you switch to following meditation need not be the same as during meditation. The claim that I am making is that I frequently function differently for some hours following meditation using claimed delta based binaural tracks. I am able to e.g solve complex design tasks whilst only seeing immediate decisions and just passively watching the present. Replaying the design route later leaves me to believe that the problem decisions were made from a sound position covering all the design facets. Looks like went to bed with a complex decision, woke with a really tidy, well thought through solution only only didn't need the 7 hours of background processing.

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It makes sense that you would be in an altered state for hours after meditation. The effects of the AVS machines also last for a few hours after the session. I totally agree with you on the outcome, I'm just not certain of the details concerning how you got there. :-)

Is this program that you speak of a cd? Are you using it with a Proteus or Procyon? Does the program say that it is using Delta BBs or are you just figuring that it is delta?

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bob: I personally dislike this as a waking state, (possibly why I've never owned a TV...). I've found that hi-tec meditation has close to eliminated it.

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Like it or not, theta is the twilight state that your brain naturally goes into as you fall asleep and naturally wake up to. The only way you can change that is by setting your alarm clock to wake you at a different point in your sleep cycle but you'd likely feel out of sorts for the day. If you are referring to a really groggy feeling, then it could be that you've been woken up during a delta cycle. The AVS machines on all programs, except the sleep ones, are designed to bring your mind back to a more alert state after the session.

Ah TV ... I love TV. Mindyou my butt isn't glued to the couch endlessly or anything like that but I do get a kick out of it.

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bob: I'll try running some of your alternative AVS sessions and see if the final outcome has a different bias. I'm fairly certain that I can increase beta with eyes open (unsurprising given the martial arts background) and am wondering if the theta region may also be under partial conscious influence...

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You want to avoid doing the eyes open thing while using the machine. For what purpose do you want to increase your beta? Do you need better concentration? BTW, too much beta = anxiety.

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Label says spirulina, must read the "Use By:" date more carefully in future :)

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:icon_tongue:

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Originally Posted by Bob

Hi Marisa,
There is a phrase in the review paper that you referenced that I think succinctly describes the post-meditation state that I suspect I've seen glimmers of:
"...the alert calm and peace of yogic practice or the effortless but appropriate behavior of Zen Buddhist and Taoist adepts."
Bob

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The calm comes from the alpha/theta state and the alert comes from SMR. So ... technically speaking ... the AVS program would need to speed up towards the end of the session so that you are feeling awake and alert.

What you could do is "anchor" that feeling when you are having it so that you can extend the feeling longer. Anchoring is an NLP procedure that can help you induce or prolong a particular state.

I found a couple of links on the net that explain how to do this:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/nl...ing/1202208224

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKvMIWdTviA

http://www.renewal.ca/nlp31.htm

Dear Bob & Marissa

I have read your thread but am a little lost as to exactly what you are trying to work out.

But here's my penny's worth on binaural beats and meditation.

Binaural beats, in my experience, help you to get into deeper more expanded states very quickly but may limit the complexity of brain pattern possible. I tend to find meditation with binaural cds dissapointing. However, when I meditate in the usual fashion, I find that the meditation is stronger than usual. So i consider binaural entrainment, and I guess AVE too (as i just bought Procyon) to be less of a meditation more of an pre-exercise to true meditation. Why? Maybe the cd's / lights take into levels rapidly but limit your expansion across levels.

You mention meditation being in theta, or alpha, or delta. What if it is none of these, but a mixture of brainwaves? I am thinking of the Awakened Mind pattern discoverd by Anna Wise, creator of the Mind Mirror. She discovered experienced meditators and others in peak states, shared something in common. Beta, alpha, theta, delta, Gamma branwave pattern. I did buddhist meditation and miraculously achieved full synchronisation and awakened mind just like this in 12 weeks!

AVE will never help me achieve that unless you have a binaural with all the frequencies at once (there are some of these on the market). As for lights, am I wrong in assuming that they are even more limited in entraining multi-level brainpatterns?

Peace,
Jamie :)

Jamie,

I'll be interested to see what others make of your statements, but you've put in words very much what I have felt.

Nothing I've experienced using BWE/AVS is comparable to what I would call 'meditation' as I have known it by other means, but BWE/AVS has assisted me in attaining specific states of consciousness that I believe to be therapeutic or useful with almost surgical precision.

Meditation, for me, has tended to be an unbounded state, whereas the states I work with using BWE tend to be very specific. The nearest thing to meditation in terms of expansiveness that BWE has helped me with would be lucid dreaming, but that's a whole other subject, and I would say that BWE has facilitated it rather than caused it.

Thanks for your experience,
Craig

Craig

I think you said it all when you said,

"...BWE/AVS has assisted me in attaining specific states of consciousness that I believe to be therapeutic or useful with almost surgical precision.

Meditation, for me, has tended to be an unbounded state, whereas the states I work with using BWE tend to be very specific."

Indeed. This is often because 'meditative' states via BWE focus on one or two main frequencies. very limited. I am wondering though, if say, mimicking a complex pattern like beta-alpha-theta-delta-gamma would be any different. One must also remember that in true meditation, in the classic awakened mind and I know because I saw my eeg as an e.g., one produces a balanced hill of frequencies with no gaps, from 1-40hz. If you used a Cd, you might have beta-alpha-theta-delta-gamma ...but if you set beta as 14 and alpha as 11 and so on, what would the brain do with the 'spaces' in between? Would it fill them? In other words, even with an awakened mind BWE would it be the same as an organic awakened mind?

Interesting. I wish i had an EEG spectrum analsyser or something to check this out!

I agree that as a therapeutic tool it's great. I use it for 'adhd' hence attention, concentration, learning and memory, I prefer it as a tool for 'higher frequency work' than meditation tbh. My meditations are usually quite disappointing with AVS or BWE. Also, there is the added fact that, say with buddishm, your meditation is way more complex, and your philosophy etc adds subtle information to your experience. i wonder if you crteated a BWE replicating, say, a buddhist meditation, what the similarity/difference would be between someone doing a buddhist meditation with/without BWE? How would the two snythesize if at all?

I tend to use BWE/AVS meditation separate from Buddhist meditation, It would be weird to do my buddhist meditation on an AVS i think! But would be an interesting experiment I guess...

Gosh im babbling, trying to share my perception,
Jamie

...but if you set beta as 14 and alpha as 11 and so on, what would the brain do with the 'spaces' in between? Would it fill them

You could of course make BWE to run all frequencies 1-40hz...but even then. Oh and when I saw my 'classic' awakened mind on the EEG, she showed me that the frequencies were balanced from 1-40hz also, like a little hill, perfectly shaped. I guess you could encourage this through amping up the medium range and distributing the powrr accordingly, but still--would it be the same?

I tend to think there are many ways to the mountain top, what you see when you get there is determined by your belief. Maybe I COULD be a buddhist with a mindmachine after all !

I'd be delighted to be shown to be wrong, but I fail to see how multiple frequency entrainment could be possible. Sound/audio signals do strange things when mixed and entrainment is a very specific phenomena associated with repetitive stimulus. At the most obvious level, two differerent entrainment frequencies will interact to create a third (the principle of binarual beats). By the time you try to create 'broad band' entrainment, I believe you'd end up with a completely meaningless soup. I'm finding it a little difficult to put into words the images I have in my mind, but I'm picturing the oscilloscope images of tones and pulse-streams as I add more frequencies to the mix. By using sound and light you can get two frequencies going - if you're interested I could email you a fun little session I've written called "Dis" that does Beta and Delta at the same time, crossing between light and sound and all over the place.

Our ability to interpret music shows that we have extraordinary ability to decipher complex sound, but that ability is dependent on the fact that each instrument has discernable characteristics. There may be some clever way of using this to 'encode' multiple entrainment frequencies, but I really don't know.

What I do is that the brain is a very malleable, and that as I have spent more time using single frequency entrainment mine has become more willing to 'entrain on demand' and that I can summon various mental states just by thinking about what a particular entrainment tone sounds like and remembering how it feels. I'm experimenting with summoning mixed-states during my 'quiet times' by deciding, for example, that I want to be in an 'alert contemplative state' or a 'creatively analytical' state and setting my mind apparently conflicting tasks, hoping that it will be possible to use the lessons learned through BWE to consciously induce the more broad-band experiences of what I would call 'true' meditation.

Crikey, what a lot of nonsense that ends up looking like - and I can't think of any way of saying it that expresses my meaning better. Oh well, I've said I'm quite nuts before, so if these rambling just on to prove it, so be it :)

Cheers,
Craig

CraigT :)

Hemi-Sync claim that their binaural beats are 'multi-layered', even for simple usage like concentration (beta). By multilayerd i assume they mean a range of Beta frequencies simultaneously. But they also produce cds like Transcendence which is for meditation. I highly recommend this track. It induced full bodily numbness, I had the sensation of fast movement, saw amazing white light with a kundalini type effect, and then I could hear lots of female voices singing behind me. There were many of them, but they were at the same time One! I know.... Some real transcendent and unusual experiences with that cd, certainly for me it managed to help me reach some genuinely meditative and mystical types states, though only like that on the one occasion. Every meditation since with it has been 'business as usual'!. (This happens to me a lot on first usage of brainwaves, I think that's because the brain is wired to a higher more organised level and is really pushed beyond it's limits, but by second listening it's already adapted).

Hemi Sync Transcendence starts off with one frequency loud, then it quietens, whilst a new frequency comes in, which then dies down, and so on and so forth. I assume all these keep playing simultaneous, with a new frequency taking dominance, until the end at which point it plays all frequencies simultaneous at the same volume which is an unusual sound indeed! This would be similar to the Awakened Mind pattern measured and talked about by Anna Wise.

She made a cd with Dr. Andrew Weil 'A Symphony of BrainWaves' which did something similar. It goes through beta, then alpha, then theta, then delta, then she ends by creating an awakened mind type state by simultaneously mixing all four. That cd is defo worth a listen, anyway, it has beautiful classical music with it that appropriately gets slower and slower, and is cleverly constructed in terms of brainwave technology.

Then there is Kelly Howell's BrainSync. I think her tracks 'BrainPower' and 'Advance to Higher Levels' are similar to Awakened Mind, beta-alpha-theta-delta-gamma all at the same time.

I do believe it is possible to entrain the brain on multiple frequencies. I tried it with brainwave generator, and although there weren't enough presets (I was trying to create awakened mind, so I wanted 40 individual frequencies 1-40hz!), I nevertheless managed a broad range of key frequencies from 1-40hz, which sounded a bit strange (similar to the end of Transcendence, may I add), but when I listened and closed my eyes indeed had similarities to the awakened mind state I have experienced organically. A soft expansive feel, and easy perception of white-gold light. Try it! hehe

A qustion, I tihnk i may be wrong about multiple-frequency entrainment with light and indeed the Procyon AVS, when I used editor last night it seemed you could set lights at different frequencies. I'm thinking this would produce multiple entrainment frequencies, or if the blue is on 10hz and the green on 15 it entrains somewhere between these, i.e. cannot distinguish the two? *Thinks* But then they're different colours, so I'd imagine the brain CAN be entrained at 10hz and 15hz simultaneous because the two frequencies would have different colours?

Jamie :)

Jamie,

I have to confess that I haven't had the pleasure of listening to Hemi-Sync or anything much else along that line, as they are not available locally (NZ), and rather expensive to import.

Reading the promotional material, and the accounts of users, I find myself wondering what is entrainment, what is placebo, what is due to beautiful sounds. I know that I can go to great places listening to Brian Eno, and that is nothing but music. I also know that 'disentrainment' sessions, that jump around randomly, can give me an expansive, fresh feeling and quiet a disquieted mind.

Alongside the Procyon, I make extensive use of Transparent's NeuroProgrammer and Mind Workstation software. With them it is possible to blend all manner of entrainment frequencies and effects, adding entrainment to noise, background sounds/music. What I'm finding though is that the more complex I make a session, the harder it is to work out what's working. A simple, single entrainment track will result in entrainment - I don't need an EEG to know that my state of mind changes in a predictable manner. More complex sessions result in more complex states, but I would be reluctant to guess at what's really going on in my head - it comes to a very subjective 'did I like it or did I not'.

It's a very exciting subject, and while there's some good research, I think the human mind is of such complexity, and the variables possible in sound and light, will make it a while before any of this could be called a hard science.

Cheers,
Craig

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Originally Posted by CraigT

Reading the promotional material, and the accounts of users, I find myself wondering what is entrainment, what is placebo, what is due to beautiful sounds.

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Entrainment is essentially a process of training your brain to change states. An AVS machine is merely one method of delivery. It's a more precise method or perhaps better said, it's a more direct method, because the programs use specific frequencies, frequencies which are associated with certain states of mind. The brain is exposed to the frequencies and begins to change it's frequencies to align with that it's exposed to.

If someone makes a conscious effort to look at all that happens in their life through a positive frame of mind, they are entraining their brain to an alpha state.

When someone meditates or sits quietly and relaxed, they are entraining their brain to a theta state.

Engaging in a learning activity, playing video games, doing puzzles, math problems, etc. your brain is engaged in SMR.

I don't see the Placebo effect being relevant here because your brain wave frequencies exist and they do change according to your state of mind so, anything that changes your mood, essentially changes your brain waves ... even imagination and hallucination.

I agree, this is very interesting! :alien:

M.

Absolutely, Marisa.

My scepticism is in relation to 'complex' entrainment, high-priced entrainment 'systems' and 'secret' entrainment protocols. I am in no doubt about the effectiveness and usefulness of entrainment whatsoever. I also see much merit in incorporating entrainment with beautiful sounds, embellishing it with interesting visuals or anything else that makes the process more fun and more captivating.

My doubt is that greater complexity increases effectiveness, and my reference to 'placebo' was largely a polite way of expressing my rather cynical view that many people will only find value in something for which they have spent a large amount of money, and having spent much money on 'product x' they will go to great lengths to extol its vitues.

Cheers,
Craig

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Originally Posted by CraigT

Absolutely, Marisa.

My skepticism is in relation to 'complex' entrainment, high-priced entrainment 'systems' and 'secret' entrainment protocols. I am in no doubt about the effectiveness and usefulness of entrainment whatsoever.

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I completely agree. Entrainment is a natural process and is actually quite simple in it's nature.

I recently saw a demo of a biofeedback machine where the user (and company) make claims that this machine can fix everything. The computer program looks complex as it has a lot to it and to someone who doesn't know about how biofeedback actually works, it can look impressive. The company sells these machines for ... get this ... $20,000. They then sell their training sessions for $4,000. It's highway robbery - especially when you can get the same results with a Thought Stream that costs under $200.

Some people equate "better" with "more expensive" and unfortunately cost is not always a reflection of quality.

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I also see much merit in incorporating entrainment with beautiful sounds, embellishing it with interesting visuals or anything else that makes the process more fun and more captivating.

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I'm sure this method appeals to many.

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My doubt is that greater complexity increases effectiveness, and my reference to 'placebo' was largely a polite way of expressing my rather cynical view that many people will only find value in something for which they have spent a large amount of money, and having spent much money on 'product x' they will go to great lengths to extol its virtues.

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I agree. My story on the expensive biofeedback machine is a good example of this. Oh and the person who bought this machine, ignored the fact that the person who created the machine fled the U.S. after being indicted for 9 (I think) counts of fraud regarding his machine.

Oh and part of her sales pitch was for the women at the demo not to use the machine on men "because they are too skeptical and don't understand the inner workings of quantum physics". She wasn't trying to sell the machines but she was trying to sell "healing sessions" that the machine could do and get this ... "you don't really need to even be hooked up to the machine in order for it to work. It can heal you from a distance.":BangHead:

M.

Great stuff, Marisa. It almost makes me laugh!!!

The other forum I spend a bit of time on, Transparent, has recently had a lot of posts on mumbo-jumbo systems, particularly ones with the word 'quantum' in their spiel.

Here's an article I found that does a superb job of explaining why quantum concepts have little or no relevance to the real-world function fo the mind...

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~celiasm...ain.cogsci.pdf

Another warning sign is any 'system' that has statements like... "While xxx is a fairly safe practice to do independent of a teacher it is important that if you have a teacher instructing you that they be approved and certified by xxx himself. They can then provide transmissions as needed when you are ready to transition to a higher level." (Taken from a particular website, but it's the same as is found on many self-helpish type sites).

There seems to be an industry built around preying on the vulnerable and insecure. I'm horrified by the 'don't show it to men' example you gave, implying that 'reason' should be dismissed as what they are offering is far beyond all that (and the implicit message that women are more gullible!!!).

It makes me sad that for every good company, like yourselves and Transparent, bringing meaningful technology to intelligent people, there's two dozen scam artists that want to milk a concept for all they can, making misleading and blatantly false claims such that the original, factually sustainable, concept (entrainment) comes into question.

Cheers,
Craig

Hi Craig,

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Originally Posted by CraigT

Great stuff, Marisa. It almost makes me laugh!!!

The other forum I spend a bit of time on, Transparent, has recently had a lot of posts on mumbo-jumbo systems, particularly ones with the word 'quantum' in their spiel.

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At the demo, the people there were calling - "The Secret's" version of Quantum Physics - "subspace". I don't believe such a thing actually exists outside of the Star Trek universe.

My best argument (so far) against New Age Quantum Physics (NAQP) is that if it was possible to make things happen just by thinking them then George Bush would be a toad and the USA would be swamp land - given all the people that hate Bush and the USA. Road rage would take on a whole new meaning, not to mention ... the sky would rain money.

The only bit of truth in NAQP, only it has nothing to do with QP, is that by imagining an outcome of a goal, you are programming your unconscious mind to be more aware of opportunities that will get you to your goal and your u/c will make internal changes that propel you toward achieving your goal. The mind always works to create that which you are thinking about.

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Here's an article I found that does a superb job of explaining why quantum concepts have little or no relevance to the real-world function fo the mind...

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~celiasm...ain.cogsci.pdf

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The link destination says "page not found"

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Another warning sign is any 'system' that has statements like... "While xxx is a fairly safe practice to do independent of a teacher it is important that if you have a teacher instructing you that they be approved and certified by xxx himself. They can then provide transmissions as needed when you are ready to transition to a higher level." (Taken from a particular website, but it's the same as is found on many self-helpish type sites).

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Ya, it translates to buy our expensive products and pay for our expensive courses because only we have the knowledge and no one else in the universe is capable of accomplishing this without our help. lol

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There seems to be an industry built around preying on the vulnerable and insecure. I'm horrified by the 'don't show it to men' example you gave, implying that 'reason' should be dismissed as what they are offering is far beyond all that (and the implicit message that women are more gullible!!!).

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I know!!! and it was a woman who said it! :icon_twisted:

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It makes me sad that for every good company, like yourselves and Transparent, bringing meaningful technology to intelligent people, there's two dozen scam artists that want to milk a concept for all they can, making misleading and blatantly false claims such that the original, factually sustainable, concept (entrainment) comes into question.

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Ya, and what's really sad is that someone like Richard Bandler is endorsing one of those bad companies.

M.

I don't know what happened to that link - here's one that works...

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~celiasm...ain.cogsci.pdf

I wonder how long it will be before people finally accept that there are no shortcuts - others may guide us, but they can't do it for us.

Instant gratification and 'the free lunch' just aren't out there.

Cheers,
Craig

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Originally Posted by CraigT

I don't know what happened to that link - here's one that works...

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~celiasm...ain.cogsci.pdf

I wonder how long it will be before people finally accept that there are no shortcuts - others may guide us, but they can't do it for us.

Instant gratification and 'the free lunch' just aren't out there.

Cheers,
Craig

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Thanks, that link works. Going to read the article now.

M.